 Emergence Review, (Some spoilers. Kept to a few, but...) |
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 Jul 12 2007, 08:07 PM
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#151
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 986 Joined: 29-June 07 Member No.: 12,093  |
My personal pet theory on why there's so much hysteria about Technomancers (now that I've had time to think about it) is that it's about the nature of technology.
We humans aren't the fastest, the strongest, or arguably the smartest on the planet (even before the metas re-arrived). But we developed technology, against the savage mysticism, with the need to survive. We've mastered it and relied on it for thousands of years. It is the great leveller. Anyone in the modern age can devote time and resources and learn how to fly a plane, drive a sub, write complex programs, etc. As long as you have the basic capability to do it. Sure we have hackers and crazy people who can do great things and innovate. But technology's real gift to us is the leap in power it gives us all. It just requires access and training and everyone can manipulate the technology with skill. We can fault some people for being more intelligent, creative, crazy as they do wondrous new things that the rest of us can't. But we're all operating in the same range. But Technomancers are savants. They were born this way and suddenly the foundation of humanity's survival is just a plaything. Suddenly, hard-earned skill counts for less than natural, unfair, talent. No amount of hard work can offset that. And it's all so insidious. It's technology that is being infiltrated. The even playing field just got superstars and suddenly existence has to change. The same could be said of magic, sure. But that was always away from mainstream society. It was outside. That's why there's so much emotion. At least to me. |
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Jul 12 2007, 10:46 PM
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#152
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
I don't want to get into an endless debate on this one but...
Actually "we" do. At least, if by "we" you include any hard core fan who's followed all the nuances of the setting. Let me provide some examples for the skeptical: Dunklezahn (Dunklezahn's Portfolio, Dragonsheart Trilogy and Survival of the Fittest) Captain Chaos (System Failure ) Quicksilver (from Imago) Serrin and Kristen (from Nosferatu) (There are more but these are all examples of different ways death in Shadowrun is not "terminal")
I'll repeat what I've said before: the three AIs are dead. The entities known as Deus, Maegera or Mirage (their personalities and agendas) no longer exist as you knew them. Their previous existence came to an end with the old Matrix. If you want to read that linearly, I'm not going to stop you. Again, two words just to mess with your mind, neither of which contradict or cancel out "death," in any form, and both of which actually play off it: transcendence and reincarnation.
GI inequivocally states Captain Chaos is dead (System Failure, p. 93) in case you missed it... regardless of his final fate (which is indeed intended as a cliffhanger)—he is "dead" by any normal definition of the term. |
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Jul 12 2007, 10:54 PM
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#153
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
as in, the body show no pulse or brain activity...
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Jul 12 2007, 11:48 PM
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#154
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 26-February 02 From: London, England Member No.: 1,680 |
As for the AI's being dead, that doesn't mean us Deus-o-philes can't get our jollies. Firstly there is the remnants of that Network, as not all of may have been online. Secondly, while the AI's may be dead, fragments of their code may live on in some of the new AI's (or even Technomancers) and may in fact be the reason for some of the new AI's and Technomancers (some, not all).
Then there is the third more frightening option. In Emergence it hints that the Otaku trying to turn the Matrix into a dissonance realm may have actually succeeded. This means the Matrix itself may have been fundamentally altered in ways that no one suspects. At the heart of this fundamental change was the virus being unleashed onto three huge AI's and subsuming their code. So if that virus affected the very heart of the matrix, it more than likely took the code of the AI's with it. Basically Deus, Morgan and Mirage may now be the heart of the Matrix, a distant trinity as unable to affect the matrix as a person is unable reverse their own blood flow, yet able to affect whole portions like the moving of an arm, but which is always missed as being part of the flux of the Matrix itself. Do AI's dream? And if an AI became the Matrix itself, how would those dreams manifest? |
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Jul 13 2007, 12:21 AM
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#155
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
Or perhaps, these ancient A.I. may even dwell in the fabled Resonance Realms rumored to be in the Matrix... Or worse, in a Dissonance Realm?
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Jul 13 2007, 12:49 AM
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#156
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
thats the interesting side of the matrix in SR. it behaves much more like a alternate dimension then a collection of computers passing signals back and forth.
sometimes im left wondering if not the SR computers are analog rather then digital... |
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Jul 13 2007, 03:17 AM
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#157
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Surely I can't be alone in preferring some things be left nebulous, never once stated for certain one way or the other ... possibly even for the GM to fill in? (What a concept!) As to AIs having died and shattered: who has read God Emperor of Dune? (I'm thinking of the ending, and the subsequent Divided God.) |
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Jul 13 2007, 03:52 AM
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#158
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Who here has read the final chapter of Emergence? |
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Jul 13 2007, 04:04 AM
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#159
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727 |
Well I have...
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Jul 13 2007, 04:33 AM
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#160
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,582 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,546 |
[blank]
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Jul 13 2007, 04:40 AM
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#161
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
... I haven't ... but I'm notorious for anticipating plot twists ... oops?
(Double oops. I'd reserved "Sedna" only for the rpg forum, but now I've slipped twice. Definitely need sleep.) |
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Jul 13 2007, 10:14 AM
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#162
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Ah, the nuances of the setting... from ED to now. Good. That allows us to really get into the concepts of 'death'. Since there is a severe misunderstanding of the meaning of words, let me explain why you comparisons don't add up, which bothered me since the beginning:
There seem's to be a misconception about 'death' and 'dying' you carry along: The essential quality to be able to 'die' literarily, and thus, achieve the concepts of 'transcendence' or 'reincarnation' require two things: One, is the fact of 'life', the other the fact of 'soul' (and yes, there is... see Cybermancy). The concept of magic in SR, on the other hand, strictly separates the digital sphere from the mana sphere, while attributing 'Soul' to magic. So, literally, AIs can't die, as they never lived, not transcend/reincarnate, as they have no soul by SR magic. That doesn't keep them from securing their personality through distributing it like Deus did - but it means that they are what they are: Nothing but code. Thus, their actual existence is their only form of existence, and the term 'died' is used in the meaning conveyed to machines - if you computer dies, this means a failure that can result in complete data loss (but doesn't need to)... but if it's declared the end, then your data is completely gone (if you had backups or could recover essential parts, it wouldn't have been 'the end'). So, if the great AIs met their 'end' because they 'died', this means they are gone. In any way. (This is especially true for Deus/Morgana, as they were working from backup.)
In case of the Captain, he died - since he was alive. Now the real fun starts: As per concept of magic, this means that his soul is gone to the realm of the dead (see ED and, to a degree, SR3) At the same time, his personality data was copied by JBN onto the matrix. Those are different entities however - and agreeably the latter is only... a copy. To summarize: While prominent characters of SR died, they were alive, and thus, 'death' declares the end for their physical life. Luckily, SR picked up the ED line of the soul, and thus, nobody that died is really lost. But if there is noting but that form existence, then it's goodbye. And that's the big difference, that makes this new, digital death special in the way of no return: There's no afterlife for data. So if you declare their end and death - it's loss of information entropy. There is no weaseling around that: You can't recover it. Never, ever. But, honestly - the fact that Game Information needs that attention to detail is a serious problem. A GM must be able to read it and trust the facts, not secondguess them with the knowledge of the entire game line. Otherwise, you just can save the space (expecially for GMs new to SR) and add some more fluff text - because it doesn't matter anyway and fluff is nicer to read. :S |
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Jul 13 2007, 10:20 AM
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#163
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Sure. It's the old belief of acheiving immortality through ones children (by genetic memory, in Dune... an over-the-top concept not featured in SR), enchanced by religious engineering that Dune is all about. It's important to note, while your children are alive, you aren't - and they are not you. |
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Jul 13 2007, 10:57 AM
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#164
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,598 Joined: 24-May 03 Member No.: 4,629 |
I do request that no one use Quicksilver and Imago as points for or against, however.
That mess was the Clone War of Shadowrun. Gah. "Hi! I'm a ten year old Immortal Elf in the body of an adult and fully developed beyond your ken. I recorded my entire life right up until I died, then somehow broke apart my cyberdeck post-mortem and hid it years before this happened, but those parts still record right up until I died. And then I'm recreated! WHee!" No. Just ... just no. |
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Jul 13 2007, 12:44 PM
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#165
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
Subtle. :P Actually, I was going to mention that you could consider Morgan to have died... |
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Jul 13 2007, 12:46 PM
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#166
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
As I said I don't want to draw this out. I believe your perspective is flawed because you limit yourself (unnecessarily) to some "magical" aspect of "life after death". This is a mistake and unfounded in terms of SR. Linking transcendence or reincarnation to something magical or purely spiritual is also an erroneous assumption. Your remaining points are void in this case. To cite just a couple of possibilities, the concept of "singularity" in contemporary sci-fi has been known to cater to all kinds of transcendence through technology - often involving the death of the physical form (a good recent example is the Synthetic Intelligence in Peter Hamilton's Pandora Star, but the list goes on and on). Reincarnation through technology (read non-mystical) is also a common element of slipstream and transhuman sci-fi. In terms of Shadowrun, long before Captain Chaos bought the farm and JackBNimble was let loose, there was Alice (told you there were more)...
As I've said before, you limit yourself only if you chose to do so. The Shadowrun universe has no such limitations. SR AIs have never been "simply" data constructs which is why each is unique and irreplicable, and the Matrix is far more than just software and hardware (and has been for quite some time). |
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Jul 13 2007, 01:10 PM
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#167
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Don't you love it when someone tries to apply logic and objectivism to an a-logical and non-objectivist concept? Synner: so long as you keep responding with any response that tries to widen possibility rather than simply agree with the logic construct, that's how long the same tools will keep being applied. (Mmm, Earthdawn constructs.) Having said that, you'd think I'd know better :wobble:
Okaaay ... I think I'd better say only that this response, Rotbart van Dainig, makes it absolutely clear that you haven't read it (or maybe haven't read it with understanding). Because "children" had nothing to do with it. In fact, the God Emperor was incapable of having children -- as we understand children ... |
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Jul 13 2007, 01:12 PM
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#168
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
No, this is the only explanation the ED-SR game line with it's separation of technology and magic allows. Point. Everything else is just trying to make everything magic, which is not a problem itself - but Mage: The Ascencion is not Shadowrun. Shadowrun does not have or need Magic that is Notmagic.
That doesn't matter, as those are not SR concepts. It doesn't matter if it's Ghostdubbing from the GitS Universe or the stack from the Takeshi Kovacs Trilogy. As it is per SR definition, magical 'soul' is the main factor and if someone's personality is copied and restored, then this makes that person someone else.
It doesn't change the fact that Alice is a copy that thinks it is the original. As long as the original isn't there anymore to disagree, no-one would notice.
It had and still has. In fact, those limitations are growing stricter with Street Magic.
AIs can be stored and transferred in SR, so they are nothing but data. The only reason they never chose to copy themselves is that there is no incentive (or even an easy way, as you need to redefine everything on interface level, ohterwise you just created redundancy) in doing so... while Renraku showed that it is possible, it also illustraded why it's not desirable. In fact, the matrix is still just hardware and data... but reaching a certain level of complexity means that self-awareness can be possible. |
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Jul 13 2007, 01:16 PM
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#169
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Just because you aren't able to perceive the underlying concepts of fiction, don't think others aren't able to do so: The sandworm cycle requires it do die to create offsprings. The water-death Leto chose was his only way to have 'children' and thus 'become eternal'. Frank Herbert build the whole Dune Series around such basic human beliefs... that's the point. Unfortunately, his son proved him wrong in that specific point and managed to destroy the history of Dune completly. |
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Jul 13 2007, 02:07 PM
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#170
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
If we really want to keep the idea that mages are not feared but technomancers are, I think it would come down to one word: lobbyists. I just came across the mention of the Illuminates of the New Dawn last night and I think that would explain things neatly. With massive propaganda (and probably magically coercive) campaigns by mage organizations like the Illuminates, the masses would come to accept mages. But without decent lobbyists, the technomancers are left out in the cold. It's like how the Nazis exterminated more gypsies than jews, but no one cares about the gypsies because gypsy lawyers suck.
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Jul 13 2007, 02:28 PM
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#171
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
It seems to be the only one you are willing to accept, but that doesn't make you correct.
Again you are mistaken and I can keep dredging up examples from SR canon to prove my point - from Alice to Captain Chaos to Roxy's interest in technologies toswitch bodies: "technological reincarnation" is very much a recurrent element of Shadowrun. It may not fit with your vision of Shadowrun, but it fits with canon and the setting, and speaking as a developer I can tell you that if any such concept comes on my desk it's going to get greenlit.
Again, I'm not sure where your getting that tese are not SR concepts, but to each his own. Transhumanism and slipstream have been part of the setting for quite a while now and play an even greater role in SR4, so... I suggest you reread the title of the second track of System Failure (and "transcendence" is one term to define Deus' goals) - its choice was intentional and it doesn't describe just Deus' goals but the entire Boston Event and its effects on the Matrix and everyone tied to it.
So you keep saying. I'd like to see some references to that effect though. Especially since in terms of Gamemaster Information on Shadowrun magic there is no conclusive evidence of a soul that I know of (note - auras and spirits do not equate to souls, neither is described as eternal or immortal, two characteristics of "souls" in the vast majority of metaphysical and religious paradigms). In fact I have at least one little bird on my shoulder constantly warning me against making any such assertions in writing. One of the ongoing metaphysical questions set of by Emergence is whether e-ghosts (as I'm calling them) are actually the consciences of people trapped in the Matrix or whether they are AI copies of the same. But the true question is whether that even matters.
Are you sure? Source? Should Alice have found a way of being downloaded (somehow) to her former body (or a clone) what would be the difference?
Given that I wrote a fair chunk of those rules and edited everything else, I'm fairly certain we included no such limitation. Please feel free to point out or cite references to in Street Magic.
Counters: - copying an AI does not produce a working AI (Renraku tried with Morgan and failed) something that should be possible if it were "simple" data. - no one has determined what X-factor makes an AI different from a powerful knowbot/expert system (R:AS, Brainscan, and Matrix all confirmed that while complexity is a factor it is not the direct cause of sentient programs). - AIs have Resonance abilities.
Quote or reference? Or is this one of your assumptions?
This is patently untrue when there is Resonance, Resonance wells, Dissonance wells, sprites, free sprites, Resonance Realms and possibly "paragons." To paraphrase the Bard: "There are more things in heaven and earth, [...] than are dreamt of in your philosophy." I won't derail this thread further particularly since I hadn't intended to return to it. I'm willing to take this elsewhere when I have the time. |
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Jul 13 2007, 02:37 PM
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#172
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,582 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,546 |
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Jul 13 2007, 02:41 PM
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#173
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Very shortly: what changed about the sandworms, after the God Emperor? and why? Why was it necessary for all other sandworms to have been destroyed during Leto's Peace? And why did the Dune cycle end with every sandworm but one being destroyed? |
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Jul 13 2007, 02:51 PM
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#174
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Even though you are unwilling to understand: They are copys, nothing more, nothing less. That has implications on identity only.
As you seem not to understand the implications of that point, I'm afraid so.
I said ED-SR, as you wanted the whole story. If you say SR, look into the Cybermancy Chapter of M&M.
The latter, as their other self went into the realm of the dead.
That's a trivial question: To everyone else, it doesn't - neither to the entity itself. After all, from those perspectives, nothing changed. The only one pissed would be the person that died and possibly is following event's from afterlife.
Either the Adept Companion (see Cheating Death) or M&M.
As pointed out already, that question is trivial.
That sorcery now is unable to resurrect the dead is an additional limitation not featured by Magic in the Shadows.
Just because you copy something doesn't mean you get it to run, if you don't understand it.
Yet.
No, it's the prerequisite, both in hard- and software.
And what is Resonance? Except the human mythification of something they don't yet understand...
It's a deduction, further explained in the part of the quote you left out...
No. Somehow, you desperately cling to the human belief that a 'living', selfaware matrix has the need for 'something' more - while the human brain shows otherwise every day. In fact, the Matrix as it is now as a synthesis of the anlogue to 'chemical evolution' and 'seed' theory. There is no reason why a human is more than a biological machine that achieves selfawareness. The ED-SR storyline then subsequential added the soul that we humans are so desperate to believe in as a hard fact, while tying it to the realm of magic. So as long as Resonance is not Magic, those concepts don't apply. |
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Jul 13 2007, 02:54 PM
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#175
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Very shortly: What is the situation thousands of years later, after the diaries of Leto had been excavated? |
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