What does it take to be a munchkin?, Is there a consensus? Options

[pbangarth]

So, the word has been used a lot, but it seems as if one person's munchkin is another person's clever player. What do you think makes a player a munchkin?

Does it take putting a 1 in an Attribute? Or more than one Attribute?

Is it using Qualities that make no sense for the character, to get more BPs?

Is it an attitude towards the game, the GM, the other players?

If the player doesn't break any rules as provided in the source books, then does s/he deserve censure? After all, if it was against the spirit/logic of the game, why would it be in the rules?

If it's not about the rules, then what are the determining factors, and who gets to decide?

[FriendoftheDork]

Munchkin? Well the correct definition is a player who only cares about making the most powerful character he can, usually by abusing the system in ways it was not intended and possibly also cheating.

A better word would be "power gamer" which is part of the first (min-maxing, negative quality shopping. They usually has less interest in roleplaying and more in creating powerhouses to "beat" the GM.

Still a player may have power-gaming traits and still be a good rolelplayer, but the GM should probably keep him in check to avoid unbalance unless all the players are like that. If they're all power-gamers then it's no problem.

The GM has final say, and the players have veto rights in that they can walk out at any time. Thus an agreement is best.

[sunnyside]

I think the wiki does a pretty good job of explaining what a munchkin is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchkin_%28r...laying_games%29

The things you described could also apply to real role playing powergamers, or loonies for that matter.

Still all that stuff is fishy.

[JonathanC]

I would define a munchkin by their goals. A munchkin is someone who's primary goal in creating a character is to make them as competent as possible in a given area (usually combat) while reducing the disadvantages of being so lopsided through flawed logic.

So, for example, the guy who builds the massive troll with 1s in most of his mental scores (gotta keep that willpower up for mental resistance), then proceeds to lead the group into combat with clever tactical plans that the character would be incapable of making.

Or the elf mage who takes a bunch of tech related disadvantages like Sensitive Neural Structure, Sensitive System, and Scorched, knowing that their character will likely never actually experience any problems from these disadvantages.

Or, the most common, the frail rigger who stays locked in a bunker while his drones do the work for him.

In my experience, the munchkin character isn't nearly as much of a problem as the asshole controlling him.

[Jaid]

i would basically define it as someone who creates characters purely for the purpose of those characters being powerful, without regard for the fun of others or roleplaying. frequently this ties in very closely to questionable rulings, rules-lawyering, abuse of various rules, deliberate misinterpretation of the rules (often accompanied by attempts to pressure a GM into accepting their misinterpretation as valid) and so forth. these things may be a symptom of munchkinism (and if all are present in large quantities, chances are you've got a munchkin) these symptoms do not necessarily indicate you have a munchkin on their own, however.

[FriendoftheDork]

[JonathanC]

It's the desire to "win" the game. And I still think it's more of a player thing than a character thing. I've been in games with well-optimized characters. That's fine. Players who are goal-oriented and want money/exp to improve themselves? Also not a problem. But there is a selfishness, a whinyness, and an utter disregard for their fellow players and GM that defines a true munchkin (also known as the cheese whore among my friends) for me.

[Cochise]

[savantt]

I think there is an inherent problem in drawing a line at where being a munchkin starts and stops...I agree with the consensus so far that it it primarily somone who tries to 'win' the game, and only cares about making a purely supreme character...

The problem comes from the fact that, as I see it, most players (not all), will try to make a character that is as effective as possible, whilst prehaps not touching a core concept, or rationalising all their choices by explaining them in the bio.

This leads to the problem that if somone makes an amazing character and then explains EVERYTHING in a novel and interesting way in the bio, I'd stop short of calling them a munchkin. You could claim that, if this was the case, that making the uber character wasn't a primary aim, but it is possible to have multiple aims...

Generally, the only definitive line is, as far as I can see, a munchkin is only a munchkin if his actions are bad enough to have a (generally negative) impact on the game for the other players (and remeber the GM is a player too..).


Yeah, I'm aware the end dosent agree with the beggining...meh, what you gonna do.

[FrankTrollman]

People whose characters are defined mechanically in a way you don't like are "munchkin", especially if they are at all effective for having been defined in that way on paper.

The term is used as a pejorative so frequently and with such ignorance that it truly means nothing at all.

-Frank

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Whoever ruins the game for others by taking more than his fair share of 'screen time'.

The other side-effects of an egocentric 'Me first' attitude like min-maxing, rules-lawyering, whining, etc. are just symptoms - they don't make or break a 'munchkin'.
What it boils down to is that the desire to be the 'star' grows so strong that the other players are degraded to 'audience'.

In which case they could watch a movie as well, read a book, or stuff.

[Ravor]

I guess I'd have to paraphase a rather bad Supreme Court quote to answer your question.

"I may not be able to define what a Munchkin is, but I know it when I see it." :cyber:


Seriously though, both FrankTrollman and Rotbart van Dainig are right, just combine their two posts and you've got the 'true' defination of a Munchkin.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Hm. That would pretty much result in:

'Munchkin: Someone who ruins the game for the rest'

Which is indeed a great way of defining one. :grinbig:

[Ravor]

Well I was going for:

"Munchkin:

( 1 ) Someone who ruins the game for the rest.

( 2 ) A term used on the internet for someone with a "bad-fun" playstyle."


But yeah, you two have pretty much summed it up. :cyber:

[sunnyside]

Munchkin is a bit like the word "Jerk" in that if you try to get down to the nitty gritty of it and try to make hard rules it tends to not work out. And in any web based discussion you will probably have some people who are jerks muddying the waters as they attempt to get their behavior on the "I'm not a jerk" side. And few jerks or muchkins self identify as a jerk, or a munchkin.

It's more of a matter that there are certain behaviors/characters that are munchkin like. And when you get a bunch of the together you've got a munchkin.

[Wasabi]

In a SR game which is already a game of (sometimes magical) superheroic technofantastic folks, the munchkin lines get a little blurred.

IMO as it pertains to a SR game is a player who escalates their character's power level past an appropriate power level for their particular module/GM is a munchkin.

Overspecialized characters may or may not be munchkin. If they overwealm most of every module with their shtick, then they are for sure. Inbetween those two extremes its all GM opinion whose opinion on munchkinism is ALL that matters.

[Samantha]

I love making shadowrun characters. I have more fun making some of them than I do playing them.

Munchkin, to me, is not someone who over specializes. My definition is someone who plays the game just for the math involved and does not think of his character as a person, but as a set of numbers with which he may take over the world.

[Glyph]

A munchkin is far more than a min-maxer. A munchkin is someone who takes cheesy exploits and questionable rule interpretations to pimp out their character, with the intention of "winning" the game at the expense of the GM's campaign and everybody else's fun. They tend to bully the other characters, expect the spotlight to always be on them, and whine and compain at the most miniscule setbacks.



I agree with others that the term has been far, far overused. Often, it shows up as a derogatory term for any min-maxed or effective character. Often, 'balance" is cited, as if all of the characters in an open-build campaign should be equally effective.

One of the most common complaints is "If I make the enemies tough enough to challenge this guy, they will be too tough for the rest of the group". A problem easily rectified by either increasing the numbers of guards and have the tough character deal with the "extra" ones, or having a "boss"-type NPC that the tougher character can focus on while the others take out the grunts. Or heck, simply focus on other aspects of the game (information gathering, disabling security, etc.), so that the weaker combattants won't feel as useless if their contributions are minimal during a firefight.

Another problem comes up when a newer player makes a character who is not as good in his specialty as an experienced player's character is in his. But personally, I don't see that as a problem. Why should someone inexperienced expect to start out as good as someone who has been playing the game for awhile?



Personally, I think the terms "munchkin" and "overpowered" are far too overused. There have been a distressing number of threads cropping up complaining about everything from power foci, to stick-n-shock ammo, to characters who (gasp!) have dice pools greater than 12, and so on.

I think a lot of GMs need to relax and remember that SR4 characters are supposed to be effective characters. They are hardened pros hired to hit highly guarded facilities, in a world of cutthroat corporate espionage. They are mages who can shoot fire from their fingerips or summon otherdimensional beings to do their will, hackers who can bend the matrix to their whim, augmented beings capable of superhuman feats, and so on.

[Ninja Bearbot]

Be a membr of the dumpshock forums.

[Buster]

People who toss around the phrases "munchkin" and "abuse the system" are the worst sort of children to play with because they always think they know the only "right" way to play with your toys. In their mind, there is only one "right" way to play a game and no other way is acceptable.

In general, munchkin haters hate anyone who ever tries to get ahead. And they especially hate anyone who tries to get ahead of them. They think they must "put people in their place" and "teach them a lesson."

You can't reason with these zealots, you're better off just finding better people to play with (and be friends with).

[Ravor]

And as you can see, zealotry is clearly a two-way street.

[Kyoto Kid]

...is "Zealoty" actually a word? The closest Reference.com can come up with is Zloty which is a unit of Polish currency. :grinbig:

[Critias]

It's "zealotry."

[Ravor]

There, its fixed... :cyber:

[Sterling]

In my experience, a munchkin is someone who focuses on one aspect of a character (usually ranged or melee combat) and then makes that a priority above all else.

This will include not having the social skills needed to survive on the street, or even street etiquette. As long as they have the max dice in their skill and the max dice in the related stat, the best (most damaging) gun or weapon and the best accessories (if possible) to make their preferred area of expertise not only lethal, but better than anyone else's.

So you'll have Street Samurai who are deadly in combat, but can't negotiate or do much of anything social.

You'll have mages with ones in all their physical stats and spells that will boost them (improved str, sta, agi, etc).

A classic example I keep running into (especially back in the priority character build system) were human characters with ones in all natural physical stats, but when a million nuyen's worth of cyberware was applied, you had a character that was strong in physical and mental stats (but always with a charisma of one!) and cybered out so badly (and the new cyberlimb armor rules seem to back this up) that not even full auto assault rifle fire scares them.

Munchkins are easy to spot. Their character sheets show only one real dimension, and their background is usually "I am the best there is at doing X" and nothing else.