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> Organlegging, The Ins and Outs, No Pun Intended
Lazarus
post Jun 25 2007, 09:40 AM
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I've had players ask about this in the past and I've never really given it a really good going over. So I was wondering how you other GMs handle it in your game.

Moral issues aside I'm really more interested in the practical aspects of it.

1) How long will a dead body keep before the organs, the stuff you get nuyen for, go bad?

2) How much do you get for fencing cyberware or bioware?

3) Any other bodily things that you can or do sell? I.e. blood, semen, hair, whatever.

Any info would be helpful. Thanks in advance.
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Angelone
post Jun 25 2007, 11:43 AM
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1. On page 142 of MitS there is the organlegger's spell called Preserve.

QUOTE
but it is most oftem used by forensic spellcasters to protect cavaders from decay before autopsy


It lasts for (force+successes)x12 hours after the spell is made permanent.

2. Usually 30 or so percent of book value.

3. Up to the GM. I don't recall reading anything about this.
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Kagetenshi
post Jun 25 2007, 11:55 AM
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1) Ischemia doesn't usually start killing off organs, IIRC, until 3-4 hours in (with a few notable exceptions, like the heart and brain). We generally go with the guideline that if the body is on ice within an hour and transferred to specialists within twelve, it's probably ok.

2) As per the fencing rules in SR3.

3) Not unless you want to define them and their prices. Organs and 'ware already have defined costs you can use.

They really should have put out an organlegger sourcebook.

~J
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Lazarus
post Jun 28 2007, 07:11 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
They really should have put out an organlegger sourcebook.

Amen to that brother.

But you know you're not supposed to play "bad" guys, right? I mean killing people and things who work for big, bad corporations is okay but then selling their corpses is just Wrong!

Oh wait no. Not only am I going to sell their organs I'm going to use their fat to make soap and bombs. And use that money to buy guns, ammo, and armor.

Revolution.
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hyzmarca
post Jun 28 2007, 07:19 AM
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I imagine that Petrify if a better organlegger's spell than preserve is, because killing the people severely limits the potential uses for them.
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Pendaric
post Jun 28 2007, 12:51 PM
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I have transplanted the term Ripperdoc from CP2020 as it sounds so nice along with organlegging.
My PC's killed an exstraction runner team who came after their principle. It was a big pay day in the cyber and functioning body parts, thankfully the PC's where on their way to medical help so someone else got the score.

It brings a whole new level of headache when your team will not only sell the gear but also the body. Thankfully the opportunity is rare as most teams do not have the equipment to hand, also as time is of the essense getting a accurate appraisal of what is still functional is hard.
Its often a standard price per body as time is against the seller.
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Demon_Bob
post Jun 28 2007, 03:27 PM
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The trouble with dealing with organ leggers is that eventually they might realize that you have what they need.
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Link
post Jun 29 2007, 05:51 AM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
I imagine that Petrify if a better organlegger's spell than preserve is, because killing the people severely limits the potential uses for them.

QUOTE ("Pendaric")
My PC's killed an extraction runner team who came after their principle. It was a big pay day in the cyber and functioning body parts, thankfully the PC's where on their way to medical help so someone else got the score.

How would damage affect the condition of organs/'ware? What about combat spells, particularly mana spells?
The more you think on it the more issues arise. I agree that we need a sourcebook - suggested title "The Tamanous Manifesto". :lick:
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Lazarus
post Jun 29 2007, 07:41 AM
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Link brings up a good point here.

I think you can great around that by employing a hit location system in combat. You make up a standard by how much damage you take in that area of how much the ware is still usuable

Light: 5 - 20% reduced
Moderate: 21 - 50%
Serious: 51 - 75%
Deadly: 76 - 100%

Of course it depends if the ware in question is system wide like Wired Reflexes or one area like a cyberlimb.

Another thing to consider is that if the person in question has some custom stuff like Beta or Delta then it would be almost impossible to resell since those mods are made for specific people.
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Kagetenshi
post Jun 29 2007, 11:03 AM
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QUOTE (Demon_Bob)
The trouble with dealing with organ leggers is that eventually they might realize that you have what they need.

There's a fable about this. Something about the Shadowrunner who laid the golden eggs?

~J
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Angelone
post Jun 30 2007, 12:21 AM
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QUOTE (Demon_Bob @ Jun 28 2007, 08:27 AM)
The trouble with dealing with organ leggers is that eventually they might realize that you have what they need.

You are suppling them with what they need. Whether it's food for ghouls or spare parts for whoever, it would be terribly short sighted to snatch one of their suppliers. Not saying it doesn't happen now and again, but that's just however much less you have coming in. Doing that only hurts them.

EDIT- Yes, the Petrify spell is a good one. I was going off the OP's dead body question.
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Ed Simons
post Jun 30 2007, 01:08 AM
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QUOTE (Demon_Bob)
The trouble with dealing with organ leggers is that eventually they might realize that you have what they need.

This is true of anyone in Shadowrun. The question is whether the short term bonus to income is worth the Runner never being able to provide you with product again. Plus the fact your betrayal may scare off other Runners who might have provided product for you.
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Demon_Bob
post Jul 1 2007, 03:18 AM
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As so long as they don't consider you a loose end.
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Angelone
post Jul 1 2007, 03:35 AM
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Which is flawed logic IMO. What do they think you're going to do, go up to the next LS patrol you see and tell them you sold some guy in *insert seedy location here* some guy you murdered's organs? "No officer's we weren't going to just dump him somewhere we were going to sell him to organleggers..." Now you're not only a murderer but a sicko as well. Even trying to plea bargain won't work, because you just admitted to more crimes.

Eh, just my take on things.
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Kagetenshi
post Jul 1 2007, 03:44 AM
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Yeah. Just so long as you don't come to them saying the Star is closing in on you and they gotta help you vanish, I can't see a reason why a rational organlegger would try to take a supplier.

~J
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bclements
post Jul 1 2007, 06:55 AM
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Sure they would. Hell, an Operating Theater for a full organ recovery takes less time to set up than it does to actually recover the organs today. It literally takes 40 minutes from cross-clamp to stitching up now, less if you don't do lungs (they take a bit of time).

Tissue's a bit different, but again, if you're not worring about disposing of the body, it's about 7 or so minutes to debone a human body.
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Kagetenshi
post Jul 1 2007, 07:01 AM
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"They would…" what? The only thing I can see that referring to is that you're advocating the idea that Organleggers would harvest their suppliers, which I don't really see the rest of your post making any argument for—sure it's quick, but what about all of the other details, including having one less supplier?

~J
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bclements
post Jul 1 2007, 07:13 AM
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Meaning, by the time the runner team got to a Star patrol, and the Star got back to the place where the Runners dropped off the body (not necessarly the place where the recovery was going to take place), Tanamous is probably not going to be there when/if the Star shows up.

I don't think they would harvest their suppilers. Why would they? Cloned organs are already available to those with means. Tanamous supplies the people that can't afford such things, but can afford 'pre-owned' organs. That supply doesn't exist without people willing to supply those warm-ish bodies.

A supply that would quickly dry up without willing partners/sellers. And you can bet if the organ-leggers are killing off runners, someone would hear about it. And stop dealing with them. Which is why they don't do it.
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Kagetenshi
post Jul 1 2007, 07:27 AM
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Then I agree with you, but I still don't see what that initial part of your last post refers to.

~J
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bclements
post Jul 1 2007, 09:04 AM
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Mainly timing and location. Sorry for the confusion.

Finding them's the hard part. Dealing with them? Not so hard.
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Glyph
post Jul 1 2007, 09:15 AM
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Something to keep in mind about cyberware is that not all of it is something that you can rip out and put into somebody else, and the installation is where the real cost arises from. Someone's wired relexes were probably put in by nanotech or bio-designed microorganisms - it's not actual "wires" that you can pull out and thread into someone else. Even muscle replacement will consist of theads woven into existing muscle fiber. I could see things like cybereyes or suchlike being "resold", but most cyberware would get the runners far, far less than "book" value.

Of course, organlegging presupposes either kidnapping live victims (and keeping them subdued while tranporting them undetected - which would include finding a way to deal with DocWagon bracelets and internal tracking devices), or taking down victims in a way that does no damage to the bits of them that you want to sell. Then, you need the appropriate biotech skill (since this would presumably be out of the range of a medkit's funtioning) and tools, as well as either a handy cold container or a mage with a preserve spell (who doesn't mind putting his astral signature on something carved out of a corpse).

While the reactions of others to organlegging might be hypocritical, they will still have those reactions. Murderers still beat up pedophiles in prison. So even in the criminal world, there are still unwritten rules about appropriate behavior. That's not to say that the runners should get vindictively screwed over by the GM. But if word of their activities gets out, it should affect how the other denizens of the shadows feel about them, and deal with them. Some of their contacts might act cooler towards them, security forces might be a bit more vindictive, they might get approached for nastier jobs (such as wetwork) more often, and so on.
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Demon_Bob
post Jul 2 2007, 02:41 AM
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Agree with Glyph

The problem isn't just in finding Organ Leggers but convincing them that you, an independent contractor, are worthy of their trust. The whole loose lips sink ships. You might not intend to talk to Lone Star but instead start flapping you tongue in some local bar. A bartender or patron calls Lone Star. Lone Star goes to the bar. Now Lone Star is having a persuasive talk with you. It might even be someone you considered your friend at a party who rats you out. If a Johnson doesn't find you trustworthy you just tend not to get a job. If a Organ Legger doesn't find you trust worthy you tend to end up dead.

The Mob has in the past taken people, who are good at keeping secrets, that are looking to join the Mob, given them a job and then made them disappear afterwards to cover their tracks. I can't see why Organ-Leggers wouldn't do the same.

How is anyone to really know if someone is an organ-legger supplier or not? The ones doing it can't ever talk about it. So if an established one disappears how will that reflect badly upon their previous employers. Especially if such persons are attempting to live below the radar as Shadow-runners tend to do.

There might be good reasons why hardened criminals hate and cringe at the mention of Organ-Leggers.

[ Spoiler ]


As a side note businesses can change their suppliers for a variety of reasons; better product, better delivery schedule, a valued costumer says so, less expensive; or they are a pain to deal with. So what happens to ex Organ-Legger suppliers?
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wargear
post Jul 2 2007, 06:24 AM
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Ah for the good old days and the Transform to Goo spell. Making the harvesting of cyberware easy, and the target a lot less frisky after you revert him to normal. :D
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Angelone
post Jul 2 2007, 10:12 AM
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QUOTE
The problem isn't just in finding Organ Leggers but convincing them that you, an independent contractor, are worthy of their trust.  The whole loose lips sink ships.  You might not intend to talk to Lone Star but instead start flapping you tongue in some local bar.  A bartender or patron calls Lone Star.  Lone Star goes to the bar.  Now Lone Star is having a persuasive talk with you.  It might even be someone you considered your friend at a party who rats you out.

Same problem you have as a shadowrunner. You have to convince your employers you are competant and trustworthy.
QUOTE
The Mob has in the past taken people, who are good at keeping secrets, that are looking to join the Mob, given them a job and then cleaned them up afterwards to cover their tracks.  I can't see why Organ-Leggers wouldn't do the same.

What do you mean by "cleaned them up"? Do you mean "offed" them? Or not send them anymore work? Or set them up as a legitimate business?

QUOTE
How is anyone to really know if someone is an organ-legger supplier or not?  The ones doing it can't ever talk about it.  So if an established one disappears how will that reflect badly upon their previous employers.  Especially if such persons are attempting to live below the radar as Shadow-runners tend to do.

You have to tell someone or you won't get any business. It's like somebody one day deciding to be a shadowrunner and yet not telling anybody they are one.
QUOTE
As a side note businesses can change their suppliers for a variety of reasons; better product, better delivery schedule, a valued costumer says so, less expensive; or they are a pain to deal with.  So what happens to ex Organ-Legger suppliers?

That's the price of business, you either dump them somewhere, or try your luck at selling them to *hopefully* not-so-feral ghouls
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Lazarus
post Jul 2 2007, 11:05 PM
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I agree that Organlegging would be considered a nasty part of the underworld, but it would be lucrative and that would draw people to it. To me it’s not the same as pedophilia or child abuse.

As far as an Organlegger screwing you over I'd say you'd have about the same chance as any contact screwing you over who is from the criminal side of things.

And as far as finding one well that's why you have fixers. The Three best contacts in the game are Fixer, Arms Dealer, Organlegger. If you've got those then you're good to go.

Mostly I would use the Organlegger to get rid of corpses, especially if we can take them along with us and if they have ware in them. I've never played or GM'd a game where characters went and looked for people specifically for that purpose, but it only takes one.

I would see this as a big business. There is a ghoul nation in Africa that needs flesh. Of course it also needs an ICBM, but that's an IC post.
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