 Bloodlust and "On The Run" |
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 Jun 29 2007, 02:16 AM
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#51
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386  |
Yeah. I really meant for the blackmail thing to be an alternate interpretation, one that could easily explain why someone would open fire over something. That doesn't, however, mean that we aren't giving the Physad entirely too much credit if we use that as an explanation for his actions.
Anyway, I must take issue with something: the idea that the promise of merciful treatment by your enemies in any way offsets the risk of leaving witnesses and enemies alive. Rules of engagement and the Geneva convention and all that stuff is great... if you're a country at war. Surrenders and decent treatment of enemy combatants is viable in wars because both sides are known quantities and their reputations do indeed precede them. However, in Shadowrun, we're talking about criminals who have a vested interest in being somewhat anonymous, at least to their enemies, anyway. Joe Security guard isn't likely to recognize the shadowrunner before him as someone who has a rep in the underworld for being "merciful", they're likely just going to see some guy pointing a gun at them, and I doubt he's going to wait around to see those rounds flying at him are stick and shock before he defends himself in the most effective way available. Having a reputation as being stupidly bloodthirsty should indeed limit your future employment options, even in the shadows, but generally, I think your relationship with most people will sour a bit the second you start pointing a gun at them, regardless of your reputation. As for what happens when your runner is taken alive, well... I'd rather try and avoid such things by greasing witnesses and covering my tracks no matter what the cost than hope the Yaks will somehow feel kind just because I ruined their operation with stick and shock instead of Ex-Ex. |
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Jun 29 2007, 02:24 AM
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#52
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
A rep for being merciful won't help you when the shooting starts.
It will help you when they come calling 'round your own shack. |
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Jun 29 2007, 03:33 AM
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#53
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Oh, and thanks, Cellshade, for letting us know how it worked out.
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Jun 29 2007, 05:11 AM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
Honestly, If the TM was going to blackmail someone, he would have probably just e-mailed the a copy of the incriminating evidence to the person.
If he was planning to threaten a guy known to be good for killing with a gun why do it in his presence without hacking the guys stuff first. If I was going to threaten a Gun Bunny with a TM I would hack his equipment, threaten to post his photo and the video on the Police's most wanted, send a copy of it to the gang in question, and before even talking to him set up the whole thing to be sent off on a timer somewhere the Gun Bunny has no idea to look. Now a professional killer would/should think of these things and realize that although the TM was going about it in completely the wrong way shooting him is not the answer. Besides if the TM can get the video who else might have it? Wouldn't you need a good TM/Hacker to erase the incriminating evidence wherever it might be stored. |
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Jun 29 2007, 01:17 PM
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#55
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Target Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 28-September 06 Member No.: 9,490 |
My understanding of the Hand of God rule is that it doesn't necessarily mean that everything is just hunky dorey afterwards. Rather, it could well mean that although you survive the fall from the top of the building, you are hospital bound for the next 6 months. etc.
Now certainly, it would be within the GM's discretion to say that miraculously, the bullet passes completely through your body but misses all vital organs and arteries. It just comes down to the GM's personal preference and take on the situation. If I was the GM and I thought that I had made a run too difficult for the players by overestimating their abilities or underestimating those of the NPC's, I would be more inclined to use the latter description. If the PC was just plain stupid though and charged the 100 armed orcs, he could expect a lengthy hospital stay and the player should plan to bring a different character to the next several sessions. That will likely get your players to think a situation through a lot better. |
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Jun 29 2007, 01:56 PM
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#56
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Of course. Torturing him to get all the intel needed to tie up the other loose ends first, then shoot him. |
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Jul 1 2007, 02:53 AM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
Better! :D |
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Jul 1 2007, 03:08 AM
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#58
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Why? After all if they are coming after you then you've already done something to piss them off enough that they want you, and only a fool would corner a wild dog without first having and being completely willing to use deadly force. Whether the wild dog has a rep as being kinder and gentler then the rest of his pack or not. Because if you've pissed someone off enough to warrent having your door busted down in the middle of the night by gun totting thugs then your rep sure as hell isn't going to save your life if they don't already have some reason to keep you alive. |
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Jul 1 2007, 03:46 AM
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#59
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
They've chosen kick your door down in the middle of the night instead of having a sniper team shoot you in the head as you walk to your car in the morning. Not starting the situation with your brains sprayed all over the neighborhood has some serious advantages. |
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Jul 1 2007, 04:13 AM
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#60
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
It can also present survival opportunities.
"Okay, Mr. Nice Guy. You've fucked our corp, but you haven't killed any valuable employees. So here's the deal; we've just put a cranial bomb in your head. You work for us now, or the bomb goes off. It's that simple." |
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Jul 1 2007, 06:42 AM
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#61
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Bah, you two play the corps as being too nice, if you've pissed them off enough to warrent spending the time and resources neeeded to hunt you down then you've already pissed them off enough that if they have choosen to keep you alive it wasn't because you were "nice" it was because you are currently worth more to them alive then dead. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that "kill them all" is really a viable tactic either, but you can not bank on your rep as playing nice as even being a factor when it comes time to pull your sorry hoop out of the fire. Remember that these are the same corps that had no problem with blowing up an entire crowded apartment complex just to off one Decker in Third Edition's fluff story. |
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Jul 1 2007, 05:02 PM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367 |
I think the point is not that the cops will keep a guy alive because they're feeling warm hearted and nice, but that they will not hunt him down and kill him out of revenge for Smitty and his widow/orphans.
Cops tend to be brutal to cop killers. This post has been edited by Da9iel: Jul 1 2007, 05:04 PM |
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Jul 1 2007, 05:34 PM
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#63
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
I'm sorry but I have to disagree because I don't think that is the angle that ShadowDragon8685 and kzt are coming from, in both of their examples the runner has already done something to convince the corp to spend time and resources neccessary to hunt him down and they seem to be saying that the runner's rep for playing nice will help him out somehow.
As for a corp spending time and resources to hunt down a runner who killed Smitty well would you really want to be in the shoes of whoever authorized spending corp resources on a mere revenge killing when the Big Bosses started asking questions? Remember that the Big Bosses really don't give a frag about Smitty the wageslave, hell unless he bought life insurence from them then his death means that his widow and orphans now has to pay the corp in order to get out of the employment contract Smitty signed as well as pay for whatever cyberware and other equipment and training the corp gave him. It just isn't profitable to hunt down runners out of a sense of revenge. Sure, it's possible that Smitty might have been having an affair with his boss and now Mark is going to make damn sure that the dirty runners who geeked his sextoy are going to pay, but aside from very possibly signing Mark's death warrent if his bosses find out those situations should be rare.
Sure, and given the fact that most runners and SINless and therefor have no human rights at all it's going to be bad for any runner that gets captured. Remember that even if you have a valid SIN while on corp property it's perfectly legal for the sec guards to hook your privates up to car batteries or shove toilet plungers up your ass. However that has no bearing on whether or not a corp will authorize the funds needed to track down a runner out of revenge. |
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Jul 1 2007, 05:56 PM
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#64
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
You are missing the point - which is the Human Element.
That's a variable that will be there as long as there are humans, and thus, you have to take it into account. And even if you only consider a wageslave corp property, there's a financial difference between destruction of property and damaged property. |
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Jul 1 2007, 06:14 PM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367 |
Ravor: You're right. I missed it by reading too fast, but Rotbart is right. There will always be a human element. If I was working for a corp, I would more likely deal with a professional and more likely just dispatch with a cold-blooded killer even if my dealings required cold-blooded killing. I would assume the professional can execute when needed. I would doubt the wageslave killer's ability to refrain from excess loss of life. Sometimes you need people who don't put a bullet in the back of the head of everyone they can.
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Jul 1 2007, 06:25 PM
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#66
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Team moral is very important to keeping people working well. Vengeance is one of those team building and moral boosting elements. Dead staff results in vengeance, staff made to look foolish results in toy guns and toy cars appearing on people's desks. KE, for example, is a very large organization. The West Coast Operations manager has a huge budget and can move people around as necessary. As long as the budget target is made, the typical level of customer satisfaction is maintained and general no major moral issues get reported people can be assigned to whatever priority the ops manager has. So if 10 or 50 people get assigned for a week to chase them down of the 4500 operators on staff it's not going to really be big impact. It's typically more important to make people decide to go hit another target than one protected by the corp than is is to minimize costs. Ensuring that a site doesn't get successfully hit is what a security company gets paid for, so protecting their rep and street cred is important. |
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Jul 1 2007, 06:40 PM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
Another thought is that some of he big sec companies are also trying to get lonestars police contracts, so if the sec company can apprehend a dangerous criminal before LS finds them then that make them look even better.
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Jul 1 2007, 06:56 PM
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#68
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Dystopian is one thing, but you still need to preserve believability. A corporation that executes managers for authorising their security to go after the person who killed some of their security guards and his wife, is beyond understanding. Murder is not one of the outcomes of your end of year budget review. As to the endless use of Edge to save a PCs life ad infintem, I have an elegant solution (which incidentally solves other problems too). Humans start with 2 edge, metahumans with 1. Edge cannot be bought with karma. It goes up after set stages of karma earning: 10, 20, 40, 80, etc. Humans can get to seven points, metahumans six. If you burn it to survive, it's gone. Easy to keep track of, provides a power development for grading characters and forces new players / characters to use sense instead of luck. Works very well for me. -K. |
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Jul 1 2007, 07:18 PM
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#69
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
so you only get 7 pts, as a human, of edge, for your entire running career? its luck, not the hand of god itself intervening on your behalf, imo, which is essentially what you're turning it into if you cant reaccquire it.
and thats what it sounds like to me you're saying |
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Jul 1 2007, 07:24 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367 |
So...cats have an edge of 8?
A common house rule is that HOG reduces your maximum by 1. Low edge folks still replace the burned edge more cheaply, but they'll run out of 2nd chances just as fast (assuming they buy it back up before they need it again). It still makes player death a long hard road for the GM, but hey, it's fun killing PCs over and over again. :vegm: This post has been edited by Da9iel: Jul 1 2007, 07:30 PM |
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Jul 1 2007, 07:39 PM
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#71
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Sorry, but that's the worst houserule I read in a long time, since it destroys one of the major benefits of SR4: Leveling the field between starting and experienced characters. It's a step back to the old level-up chore. |
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Jul 1 2007, 07:53 PM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367 |
Especially since it would take 320 Karma to actually use the "Lucky" attribute. That's assuming you didn't ever use HOG.
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Jul 1 2007, 08:45 PM
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#73
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
No I agree that the "Human Element" should be taken into account, where I disagree is that in the feudal enclaves of the corp world the average noble (management) is going to get teary-eyed and hunt down the scum who killed one of his peasents (wageslave) unless something was going on behind the scenes to make the situation personal as opposed to SOP. Besides, generally speaking what does the corp gain from hunting down the runners? They sure as hell can't replace the dead wageslave and killing them won't increase the corp's bottom line. It's usually merely throwing good money after bad even if the corp is able to catch the runners responcible.
Sure, every Johnson would love to be able to call upon a team of professional scum that would do his bidding like good little minions without the sass, power-games, and freakiness of your average Shadowrunner team. On the other hand, if there wasn't something wrong with them, the Shadowrunners would ahve been snatched up by your corp talent scouts along time ago so when dealing with freelance scum you've got to use what you've got.
Moral issues? Up the dosage of "Happy Juice" in the water cooler and increase the surcharge deducted from the employee's paycheck. Remember that we are talking about wageslaves here, the vast majority simply can't make the choice to leave their jobs because they owe their employer too much money and have a contract legally binding them to go to work. Hell, for many of them their widow has two choices, sell one or two of her children to organleggers or if she's pretty join the "secetary pool" as an exec's plaything.
Sure, and for the responce to a single incident it might not seem like a big deal, until you think about the fact that you are dealing with multiple incidents ranging from runners to gangs to terrorists, ect every week if not every single day. And if you don't want to manage moral with "Happy Juice" then how do you deal with the moral issues that are going to get raised when you send a team to chase the runners who killed Smitty but can't afford to send one after the runners who killed Jones? And what are you going to do to deal with dropping moral and the rep hit if your team fails?
So tell me, does Big A and SK ever get targeted by runners? After all they usually come off as having the baddest rep about tracking runners down and making them pay. Or do runners simply charge more before agreeing? :cyber: Seriously though, you hit it on the head when you said that sec corps get paid for making sure that there aren't any sucessful runs against them, tracking down and killing runners who killed one of their guards doesn't change the fact that they've already took a massive rep hit by not stopping the run in the first place and killing Joe Runner won't make up for it even IF they are able to geek Joe in the first place.
If I viewed corp society through a lens of the way things work in 2007 sure I'd agree. The problem is that the corps basically run like a proto-feudal society crossed with a bad 80s movie and sprinkled with a leftist spin of "regan-onmics" for spice. Remember that we are talking about the very same corps who have no problem with blowing up an entire apartment complex just to target one Decker. In the Sixth World bullets are cheap and life is cheaper.
Yeah and it works even better if the corp had created the problem in the first place just to be able to clean it up, much easier and cheaper then spending money on the off chance that you'll be able to catch the same runners who hit the facility you failed to protect last night. :cyber: |
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Jul 1 2007, 09:31 PM
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#74
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
See, once again we return to believability. If you want to play the setting like that, then that's your perogative, but you are here on the forums saying that this is how things are, and I don't think the setting supports it. It's simply not believable that corporations are being targetted by armed attackers every day. And not each corp being targetted every day which is what your argument would require. If you want to say that each of the megacorps is targetted every day, then maybe you can stretch it that far, but the megacorps are in fact the top of a pyramid of many lesser corps, each with their own security arrangements. There may be ten AAA corps, but there are probably a thousand or more AA corps and certainly tens to hundreds of thousands of A corps. Shadowruns have to be a rare event for any given corp. And your likening of 2070 corps to feudal europe does not support your argument. If a peasant in a baron's fief died, he might not cry, but if a rival baron sent raiders to come and kill his peasants, then I'd expect the militia to be raised. Your vision of a company filled with brainwashed, drug-filled employees and managers that regard those employees as cattle just does not work for me. It is not believable because I cannot reconcile it with human nature. Dystopian does not have to mean a cartoonish level of Tim Curry like evil. And you can sig me on that! |
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Jul 1 2007, 10:47 PM
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#75
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Well actually all my agruement requires is that a corp that is big enough to have a "West Coast Operations manager" with at least "4500 operators" (I figure that by "operators" kzt is talking about actual guards, ect and not the janitors, secataries, ect..) under his supervision will either come under attack directly or indirectly that often. As for whether or not the setting supports the level of violence I've stated, well remember that you have large armed gangs running through downtown Seattle, you have various corps suppling their "pet" gangs with weapons to further their own little power games, you have radical poli-groups of all stripes who are willing to resort to violence to make their point, you have enough mil-spec weaponary floating around that runners can get their dirty little hands on them fairly easily, you have sections of entire cities walled off to simply contain the criminals within, and perhaps most importantly you have to have enough coruption to allow all of the above to be true. Oh and to top it all off, you have a gem of a society where 'to the death bloodsports' are one of the best pay-per-view sellers. And despite the fact that Big A routinely cuts out human hearts as a religious ceramony they are still one of the most loved if not the most loved Mega Corp in the world by John Q Public.
Well firstly I said "proto-feudal society crossed with a bad 80s movie and sprinkled with a leftist spin of "regan-onmics" for spice" because of course just saying "feudal europe" isn't going to be a perfect fit, however you can fairly safely bet that if Corp A figures out that Corp B is the one who hired the hit in the first place, there is going to be more work for the Shadows in the very near future.
Tell me, did it require "a cartoonish level of Tim Curry like evil" to run dangerous factories manned by children? Is it really so unbelievable that without checks and balances the powerful will take advantage of the weak using such tactics as share-cropping and company stores (We know that the corps liek to pay their wageslaves with Corp Script that is only good in their stores.)? Given that as a society we are more then willing to take various mood altering drugs in order to be "normal" is it really that much of a strech to imagine that an enity that doesn't have legal restraints wouldn't add some to the water cooler when we know they are willing to implant bombs into people? For that matter if people could just quit their jobs whenever they wanted to why would there even be a need for a "willing extraction"? As for your purposed sig, sure I agree that Dystopain doesn't have to mean cartoonish or silly, but then again a quick look through history shows me that human nature isn't nearly as bright and cheery as you seem to imply, most of what I've suggested the corps do are things that have been or are already been/being done to the weak by the powerful without checks and balances. |
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