IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

4 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> The Trouble with Technomancers
Ghostfire
post Jun 26 2007, 08:15 PM
Post #1


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 48
Joined: 30-August 05
Member No.: 7,647



Greets,

Basically, I've run into an issue with technomancers that I simply can't get over, personally. Without starting a huge holy war, let us assume that, over the course of, say, a 300 karma career, TMs and hackers are roughly equivalent, when you average how good they are in the matrix at various points along a 300 karma/300k nuyen timeline. Yes, those numbers are randomly plucked out of the ether, but please bear with me.

My problem isn't with TM powerlevels in the matrix. My problem is a more general one: every other character type out there in 4th edition has general use outside of their speciality. Hackers can make credible street samurai or faces. Adepts can be good hackers/riggers. Mages, in addition to laying waste to Body 15 trolls with a mere thought, get to have a great deal of speed and general utility via spells. Etc.

Technomancers, though, are good at one thing: the matrix. They are required to be physically frail and have almost no impact in the real world in order to gain equivalence with a hacker. To me, that just doesn't seem fair. I'm going to be running a large game soon, and I want TMs to actually be played by PCs rather than be relegated to NPCs who occasionally show up. Yes, I realize they get to have drones, but that doesn't really address the problem. Hackers get them, too, after all.

In short, I'm looking for workable solutions to make TMs a little less one-dimensional. So far, my favorite solution (because I typically favor grabbing the bigger hammer) is to simply divorce resonance from essence -- ie, TMs can load up on cyberware.

Thoughts?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ancient History
post Jun 26 2007, 08:24 PM
Post #2


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,748
Joined: 5-July 02
Member No.: 2,935



You do realize that nowadays, the Matrix is everywhere? Augmented reality-upgrade now!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ShadowDragon8685
post Jun 26 2007, 08:26 PM
Post #3


Horror
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,322
Joined: 15-June 05
From: BumFuck, New Jersey
Member No.: 7,445



That seems like a reasonable soloution to me. It also solves the "Are Technomancers another form of Awakened" with the answer "No, they are not". :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mr. Unpronouncea...
post Jun 26 2007, 08:37 PM
Post #4


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 829
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 770



Why wouldn't a technomancer, whose mental attributes (charisma, intuition, logic and willpower) are all encouraged to be as high as possible, make a decent face?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Moon-Hawk
post Jun 26 2007, 08:38 PM
Post #5


Genuine Artificial Intelligence
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,019
Joined: 12-June 03
Member No.: 4,715



Because they don't have any BP left for social skills. :-D
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ShadowDragon8685
post Jun 26 2007, 08:39 PM
Post #6


Horror
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,322
Joined: 15-June 05
From: BumFuck, New Jersey
Member No.: 7,445



And they can't Skillwire those skills, because that would cost them their precious bodily fluits.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Moon-Hawk
post Jun 26 2007, 08:44 PM
Post #7


Genuine Artificial Intelligence
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,019
Joined: 12-June 03
Member No.: 4,715



Do you know what Flouridation of water is, Mandrake? :spin:
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mr. Unpronouncea...
post Jun 26 2007, 09:08 PM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 829
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 770



QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Because they don't have any BP left for social skills. :-D

Well, ok, so they'd be mediocre out-of-the-box, but over time, could easily grow into that role.

At least as well as any non-social-adept awakened character anyway.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sunnyside
post Jun 26 2007, 09:12 PM
Post #9


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,865
Joined: 31-December 06
Member No.: 10,502



While your point is valid, TMs don't have a lot of room to mix it up, I just wanted to make sure that you realize that a TM drone is not the same as a hacker drone. The hacker drone can be spoofed, the TM drone cannot. The hacker has to load a drone up with a super expensive system to get high ratings running on it, the TM can go with the "off the shelf" model.

Also a TM, starting, should be an order of magnetude more potent in the matrix.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jaid
post Jun 26 2007, 09:21 PM
Post #10


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,089
Joined: 4-October 05
Member No.: 7,813



hackers get drones that make riggers cry. not even the adept rigger can compete with the technomantic rigger, and that's saying a lot.

seriously, you might think that riggers get drones too so it doesn't count for anything, but remember that the rigger's drones aren't throwing 15 dice on dodge tests or 26 dice on their gunnery tests, most likely =P (assuming the TM is doing the rigging directly, that is... if it's a sprite, then it would be a bit more reasonable =P )
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
knasser
post Jun 26 2007, 09:26 PM
Post #11


Shadow Cartographer
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,737
Joined: 2-June 06
From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West)
Member No.: 8,636



QUOTE (sunnyside)
Also a TM, starting, should be an order of magnetude more potent in the matrix.


And there's something *I* don't like. Certainly you can make a dual role hacker-something character, but if someone wants to be a pure, old-school decker, they're always and eternally going to be in the shade of a technomancer.

Technomancer: "I compile software with my frontal lobes and become one with the very structure of the matrix. What do you do for a hobby?"

Hacker: "Um, I studied for years to learn how a program is put together and what code really is."

Technomancer: "Bah! I just woke up one day and was better than you. Take this gun and learn how to be a Samurai."

Hacker: *cries quietly*
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ancient History
post Jun 26 2007, 09:39 PM
Post #12


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,748
Joined: 5-July 02
Member No.: 2,935



Now see, a real hacker would shoot the technomancer in the head and say "Code this, Neo."

Or else have a trio of agents fire a black hammer across his precious frontal lobes while saying "I may not be uber, but I have learned artful."

Hell, I'd even settle for turning on the jammer you have installed in your cyberarm and beating the technomancer to death.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
knasser
post Jun 26 2007, 09:57 PM
Post #13


Shadow Cartographer
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,737
Joined: 2-June 06
From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West)
Member No.: 8,636



QUOTE (Ancient History)
Now see, a real hacker would shoot the technomancer in the head and say "Code this, Neo."


That's a cute line and consider it stolen... but that's not a "real" hacker. That's precisely someone who isn't a real hacker and is turning to other roles to compensate for no longer being allowed to be the specialist.

Even if the hacker could compete with the technomancer, he'd still lose out thematically, because the technomancer has a mystic connection that will always transcend the hacker's understanding. You could stat up Fastjack or Dodger and neither one would be able to understand what the eight year-old technomancer does or to achieve the same intuitive understanding of the Matrix. But that was only if the hacker could compete with the technomancer. In truth they face rules redundancy also, They will have broader skills (probably) but that never counts as much as being able to say "I'm the best."

Existance of Technomancers = Pure Hacker No Longer Viable Archetype.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sunnyside
post Jun 26 2007, 10:23 PM
Post #14


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,865
Joined: 31-December 06
Member No.: 10,502



Just to be clear a technomancer does not automatically get hacking 6 and resonance 6. Artistic licence of the writers aside. :P

I would rate a TM like that as someone who has studied a whole lot. Though granted they probably have a very strong tendency to spend a lot of time in the matrix honing their skills.

But you are right, in the crazy wireless world of SR4 the hacker who is a shut in is really not around anymore. Or rather they would be 200-300BP chars. And fastjack and dodger are getting old.

Actually I suppose you could get someone studying their skills up to 7's and making their own level 7 stuff. And they wouldn't for all their effort be as good as a TM.

Still though they do have one edge going for them that they never lose. They can always run cold, or even flick to AR if they start taking a beating from some black ice(making the target icon have to switch out their black attack program.) The TM never can, and someday that will get them.

I hadn't thought about it, but onlne murder may become more common. It isn't very effective against deckers as unless they're in the middle of a run they're probably running cool or AR. But anytime a TM is online, which is generally all the time, someone could just come up and blow their brains out.

Back on subject how do people think a pure sprite TM would work. They could spend BP only on the TM quality, a high resonance, and fives in compile and register. That's only 110 BP. They also might not need so much in their stats. Like logic. With the rest of their BP they get other usefull skills and stuff for the real world.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Buster
post Jun 26 2007, 10:39 PM
Post #15


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,246
Joined: 8-June 07
Member No.: 11,869



Can someone post side-by-side optimized Technomancer vs. Hacker characters that we can compare? Using straight by-the-book 400bp starting characters (i.e. max 200bp in attributes, etc.).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jaid
post Jun 26 2007, 11:05 PM
Post #16


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,089
Joined: 4-October 05
Member No.: 7,813



you'll have to narrow that down. do you want a focus on just hacking, or do you want other things also?

in any event, i'm not particularly convinced that hackers are really obsolete. the simple fact that the hacker can never be as overpowering in one thing as a technomancer tends to ignore the fact that a technomancer has a really hard time being good at multiple different tasks at the same time... the more stuff you have to thread at once, the harder it gets for a TM to do anything at all.

so sure, TMs can be really good, but that tends to have it's own limitations, within the matrix as well as outside of it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TheRedRightHand
post Jun 26 2007, 11:14 PM
Post #17


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 170
Joined: 18-September 06
Member No.: 9,412



It's evolution, baby.

New and improved makes the old ways die off. If Hackers can't hack it anymore then it's time to shuffle off to Buffalo. That's just the way it is.

At least the developers are keeping the evolution of the game world "real". If things change then everyone has to struggle to keep up and if that mean some people fall to the wayside and your hacker can no longer be the best, well boo-hoo for him. Suck it up and evolve or retire.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
knasser
post Jun 26 2007, 11:18 PM
Post #18


Shadow Cartographer
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,737
Joined: 2-June 06
From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West)
Member No.: 8,636



QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 26 2007, 11:05 PM)
in any event, i'm not particularly convinced that hackers are really obsolete. the simple fact that the hacker can never be as overpowering in one thing as a technomancer tends to ignore the fact that a technomancer has a really hard time being good at multiple different tasks at the same time... the more stuff you have to thread at once, the harder it gets for a TM to do anything at all.


But that was what I said in the first place. Being able to say "I can do lots of things okay" never compares with the person who can say "I'm far better than you will ever be at what I do."

It's the flavour reasons that really kill off the hacker - he will always be at a dramatic level far below the "one with the Matrix" technomancer, but the rules support the TM being better than he could ever be and that counts for a lot in how characters are perceived.

QUOTE (TheRedRightHand)
At least the developers are keeping the evolution of the game world "real". If things change then everyone has to struggle to keep up and if that mean some people fall to the wayside and your hacker can no longer be the best, well boo-hoo for him. Suck it up and evolve or retire.


The point of playing the game is to have fun. Knocking out an archetype that many people enjoyed by introducing a superceding archetype reduces the fun of those who want to play that archetype. In game, a character can say "suck it up." You don't say that to your players.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Samantha
post Jun 26 2007, 11:39 PM
Post #19


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 125
Joined: 22-June 07
Member No.: 11,979



I'm currently playing a Technomancer. With what you guys are saying, I did something WRONG because I'm being overshadowed by a rigger in everything.

Here's my build:

http://67.189.94.71/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Shadowrun/Skitzer
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sunnyside
post Jun 26 2007, 11:41 PM
Post #20


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,865
Joined: 31-December 06
Member No.: 10,502



From a player point of view though all the old "combat hackers" are probably quite happy with the rules. TMs may be better at hacking, but combat hackers are used to not being quite the best. But now they have a much much easier time of things.

Also it's now easier to bridge out into things other than combat. A hacker can be pretty much anything else as well now. Even a mage.

A player who liked playing the old shut in could now just play a TM, which has largely taken that role.

All that's missing in the starting character who puts all his starting resources into technological means of hacking, in order to be the best starting hacker.

Also if those players don't mind a little magic there is still the hacker adept. This lets you put another 70BP into hacking. And really makes them quite formidable. In some ways they still can't match a TM it must be admitted, but they're at least contenders.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Samantha
post Jun 26 2007, 11:42 PM
Post #21


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 125
Joined: 22-June 07
Member No.: 11,979



I'm starting to think a combat hacker would be more fun for me. All I've gotten to do so far is badly forge a pair of tickets to get into a concert.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jaid
post Jun 26 2007, 11:53 PM
Post #22


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,089
Joined: 4-October 05
Member No.: 7,813



1) complex forms cannot be higher rating than your resonance.

2) from a min/max perspective, no CF should ever be taken at a rating lower than your response

3) dump decompiling. also dump forgery... you have no skills to use it with (note: forgery is used for forging art and signatures etc, not for forging ID)

4) mage sight goggles? you have *drones* for that sort of thing.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Samantha
post Jun 26 2007, 11:55 PM
Post #23


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 125
Joined: 22-June 07
Member No.: 11,979



I see..
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ghostfire
post Jun 27 2007, 12:20 AM
Post #24


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 48
Joined: 30-August 05
Member No.: 7,647



Thanks for the responses. The conversation, thus far, has ranged about, as I thought it would. Still, I haven't seen a lot of examples of ways to make TMs a little less specialized.

I'm not trying to debate specialization versus generalization. I'm just trying to make TMs a little more diverse than 'that guy who can do anything in the trix but is useless in a firefight'.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bait
post Jun 27 2007, 01:23 AM
Post #25


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 107
Joined: 21-December 06
Member No.: 10,413



QUOTE
My problem isn't with TM powerlevels in the matrix. My problem is a more general one: every other character type out there in 4th edition has general use outside of their speciality. Hackers can make credible street samurai or faces. Adepts can be good hackers/riggers. Mages, in addition to laying waste to Body 15 trolls with a mere thought, get to have a great deal of speed and general utility via spells. Etc.


Not without sacrificing something along the way, each of these archetypes have something to buy to further there chosen path or chose to follow another path at the cost of the main one.

This is reflected in the core of the character building section, you can only raise a single stat or skill to the maximum as the start and it costs a significant portion of your BP. ( With skill groups being capped at maximum of 4 when starting.)

A TM's main limitation is with cyberware/bioware as it directly impacts his core abilities, however something thats more skill oriented is less impacted by this.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th March 2024 - 11:49 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.