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Buster
post Jun 30 2007, 03:20 AM
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Is there any way to hide from Astral Perception with Invisibility (or Improved Invisibility) or any other Illusion spell? The rules seem to say that an astral perceiver only needs to get one hit with an unopposed Int + Assensing test to spot the Invisibility spell, and therefore the user. It seems like Astral Chameleon is the only defense against astral perception but that only makes the astral perceiver's job a little harder with a -2 penalty.

How does Extended Masking work with Invisibility? Since Extended Masking only hides the spell in the user's aura, does Extended Masking actually help hide the user?
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Ravor
post Jun 30 2007, 04:55 AM
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Well there was a big discussion on this issue a awhile back and although there are still two camps personally I'm of the opinion that no, it's not a good idea to use magic to hide from a Mage.
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Critias
post Jun 30 2007, 06:25 AM
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Astral Perception > All. :(
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Tarantula
post Jun 30 2007, 06:44 AM
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Stealth specialized (Astral) anyone?

Alternately... carrying a large fern, or other such living thing and holding it between you and the mage.
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odinson
post Jun 30 2007, 06:58 AM
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I thought that was what the infiltration skill was for. You're trying to avoid being detected. His astral perception roll would be opposed by your infiltration roll. I guess if you're relying on invisibility to not be detected though it's probably because you were too cheap to by points in the stealth group.
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Geekkake
post Jun 30 2007, 07:07 AM
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Invisibility will has zero impact on an Astral Perception check. For the sake of sanity, however, I'll also rule that it doesn't help the Astral check. Otherwise,, you're going to run into corps hiring dozens of mages running tons of astral Watchers, and, well, that's just retarded, from a gameplay perspective.
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Sterling
post Jun 30 2007, 08:14 AM
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The spell itself would be visible on the astral plane. Even if I houseruled they couldn't see the targets, the fact a spell is wandering around would definitely attract security mage attention.

I'd always thought the best way to 'blind' astral security is with some sort of astral fog, much like the bacteria used to block (not detect) astral intruders. A modified smoke grenade might be able to pump out enough of the bacteria to 'cloud' a room, which would require perception checks (using heavy or light smoke/fog modifiers) but would also be somewhat suspicious as well.

My advice is to have a large spirit start slamming into a ward at the opposite end of the area you're trying to infiltrate. That'll draw pretty much all the attention. Or you could employ a large physical adept troll I know who'd be glad to suckerpunch any prying astral (or physical, he's not picky) entities. That's always made me chuckle, because when a mage goes astral they slump over like they're unconscious. So how would you tell if the mage DID go unconscious?
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knasser
post Jun 30 2007, 09:52 AM
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QUOTE (Sterling)
That's always made me chuckle, because when a mage goes astral they slump over like they're unconscious. So how would you tell if the mage DID go unconscious?


Or has fallen asleep on company time. :D
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Wasabi
post Jun 30 2007, 10:01 AM
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The best way to beat astral perception is Control Thoughts via a projecting mage. Sure its physical drain so getting a summoned spirit to buff Willpower and the Focused Concentration positive quality both help but really... mind controlling the poor sap is the best defense. First command: "Stay astrally active and don't acknowledge or react to intruders."
Second command: "Give me all your spell defense" as you or a second of your spirits of man cast Decrease Willpower on the astral guard.
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2bit
post Jun 30 2007, 12:12 PM
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First, a spell cannot affect both the physical and astral planes at the same time. Either a spell is taking effect here, or there; never both. A spell's aura, however, is *always* visible on the astral plane, regardless of which plane it is cast on.

Secondly, Invisibility affects vision, which Astral Perception is not.

Illusion spells can be cast on the astral plane. Exactly how astral illusions manifest, and how easy they are to penetrate, are topics of debate. But the answer to your question, at least, is cut-and-dry. Invisibility won't hide you.
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Critias
post Jun 30 2007, 12:45 PM
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QUOTE (odinson)
I thought that was what the infiltration skill was for. You're trying to avoid being detected. His astral perception roll would be opposed by your infiltration roll.

How do you avoid being seen by someone to whom you glow like a neon sign? Someone who ignores camo and ruthenium and shadows and darkness? The Stealth/Infiltration type skills are all well and good (believe me, my characters and I believe in them quite strongly, and use them as much as we can) -- but against Astral Perception it just doesn't cut it most of the time.

It's possible to still sneak around, sure, but only by being genuinely out of their line of sight (rather than by trusting camo and the environment, low-and-slow crawling, ghillie suits, lurking in darkness, etc, all the standard tricks).
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jun 30 2007, 01:09 PM
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That's why camo, darkness and stuff reduce the dice pool oft the perceiver. The one sneaking around has the same dice pool.

So if there is nothing in your favor, the perceiver just get's full dice pool. And that works with astral perception, too.
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hyzmarca
post Jun 30 2007, 02:18 PM
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QUOTE (Critias)
QUOTE (odinson @ Jun 30 2007, 01:58 AM)
I thought that was what the infiltration skill was for. You're trying to avoid being detected. His astral perception roll would be opposed by your infiltration roll.

How do you avoid being seen by someone to whom you glow like a neon sign? Someone who ignores camo and ruthenium and shadows and darkness? The Stealth/Infiltration type skills are all well and good (believe me, my characters and I believe in them quite strongly, and use them as much as we can) -- but against Astral Perception it just doesn't cut it most of the time.

It's possible to still sneak around, sure, but only by being genuinely out of their line of sight (rather than by trusting camo and the environment, low-and-slow crawling, ghillie suits, lurking in darkness, etc, all the standard tricks).

No, you do get cammo bonuses on the Astral Plane, but you on;y have access to one type of cammo pattern, living. You can hide quite easily in a dense throng of living things, such as a flower garden or big open field of grass. Hell, crawling though a concrete jungle won't work as well on Astral as it would in real life, but crawling though someone's front lawn would, as your aura would blend in the the auras of countless blades of grass. And lets not even think about how useful or bush or a hedge would be.

This is why, when raiding an office that has magical protection, you always hide behind the potted plant.
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Buster
post Jun 30 2007, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE (odinson)
I thought that was what the infiltration skill was for. You're trying to avoid being detected. His astral perception roll would be opposed by your infiltration roll. I guess if you're relying on invisibility to not be detected though it's probably because you were too cheap to by points in the stealth group.

You mean Stealth is for people too cheap to get Invisibility.
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toturi
post Jun 30 2007, 03:09 PM
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QUOTE (Critias)
QUOTE (odinson @ Jun 30 2007, 01:58 AM)
I thought that was what the infiltration skill was for. You're trying to avoid being detected. His astral perception roll would be opposed by your infiltration roll.

How do you avoid being seen by someone to whom you glow like a neon sign? Someone who ignores camo and ruthenium and shadows and darkness? The Stealth/Infiltration type skills are all well and good (believe me, my characters and I believe in them quite strongly, and use them as much as we can) -- but against Astral Perception it just doesn't cut it most of the time.

It's possible to still sneak around, sure, but only by being genuinely out of their line of sight (rather than by trusting camo and the environment, low-and-slow crawling, ghillie suits, lurking in darkness, etc, all the standard tricks).

You only roll Astral Perception when an astral being is specifically trying to hide (which I would determine to be under the purview of Infiltration, lacking a specific canon astral hiding skill) and when Observing in Detail. The SR4 rulebook does not go into further detail about what constitutes an astral being. However, in SM, the various aspects of the astral plane are explained as Shadows, Auras, Astral Forms and Contructs. Although Auras are said to glow brightly and are vivid and lively, Astral Forms are even brighter and those are the ones that are easily noticed and by inference from the text, immediately obvious. Therefore without a Assensing test, I'd say Astral Forms unless actively hiding are Immediately Obvious, while Auras require a 1 hit Threshold. The idea that mundane equipment does not help Infiltration against Astral Perception is not completely accurate and I'd say that clothing that offer a mundane Infiltration advantage are of the subset that aren't outshone by their wearer's aura.
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Buster
post Jun 30 2007, 05:34 PM
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You guys lost me on mundane camo working on astral perception. I thought you could only see shadows and you can't even read street signs, how can camo patterns help?
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Ravor
post Jun 30 2007, 05:50 PM
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I don't think it actually does, something to remember is that toturi claims to follow RAW all the way to it's illogical conclusion and that in his games yes you really can piss on the Don's mother and still convince him to be your best friend and screaming naked orange guys can sneak into corp facilities if the character has the dice to back him up. :cyber:

However I do kindof agree with hyzmarca's take on this issue, it is easier to hide in a crowd because all the auras tend to blend together and give you camo. (I'm not so sure I agree with his lawn example, maybe a jungle or super thick underbrush.)
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Sterling
post Jun 30 2007, 09:55 PM
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The only way I would agree on mundane items giving any type of astral camo is due to the inherent inability to distinguish technology from the astral (it's all a 'dingy grey' color). But that doesn't mean you aren't noticed; you may just be something that's not as noteworthy.

A fully cybered human stands next to a non-cybered human in a chameleon suit, who is more noticeable astrally? Both would show large amounts of technology, and they might be considered similar enough to confuse the two (dermal sheathing would look similar for sure). But they wouldn't stop a mage or spirit from noticing you.

Hiding behind a potted plant would only work if it was big enough to fully obscure your armor, and earlier rules got around the whole 'he can't see me, I'm wearing full hardened security armor' argument by claiming your aura sticks out past your skin far enough to negate worn armor. This argument also negates the whole 'mundane items provide astral camo'. Hiding in a crowd is completely reasonable. So is a full suit of hardened chia armor.
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Buster
post Jun 30 2007, 11:15 PM
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QUOTE (Sterling)
So is a full suit of hardened chia armor.

LOL, that is totally awesome. Order one today! Chi-chi-chia!
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Ravor
post Jun 30 2007, 11:49 PM
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*chuckles* Why do I foresee hundreds of wage mages researching various "Slay Plant" spells now? :cyber:
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toturi
post Jun 30 2007, 11:50 PM
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QUOTE (Buster @ Jul 1 2007, 01:34 AM)
You guys lost me on mundane camo working on astral perception.  I thought you could only see shadows and you can't even read street signs, how can camo patterns help?

Camo patterns do not help since the relevant camo pattern in astral is "astral camo pattern" which the camo suit does not have. But there is a passage in SM that seem to imply that not all the shadows of mundane clothing or equipment is "outshone" by the brightness of living auras. Due to the presence of that statement, I'd be open to the concept that certain pieces of armor might provide astral "camoflage". However, by canon, the bonus afforded by camo or the chameleon suit is - Perception, not - Assensing, so if I were to rule that armor does provide "camo", it will be factored into the Shadow Clutter, and not a direct effect of the suit itself.

QUOTE
Hiding behind a potted plant would only work if it was big enough to fully obscure your armor, and earlier rules got around the whole 'he can't see me, I'm wearing full hardened security armor' argument by claiming your aura sticks out past your skin far enough to negate worn armor. This argument also negates the whole 'mundane items provide astral camo'. Hiding in a crowd is completely reasonable. So is a full suit of hardened chia armor.
That's earlier editions. This time, however...
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