Combat Realism, How to make SR3 a better system Options

[Kagetenshi]

I don't see anything on recoil penalties. I think the SA-burst idea was brought up, but no actual mechanics were proposed that I can see skimming it.

~J

[mfb]

in general, autofire/bursts should increase or at least not decrease your chance to hit a target. you can use the somewhat overly-complex house rules we came up with at Shadowland (they're complex enough that i don't remember actually ever seeing them used, so i guess that counts as a no-go).

[Angelone]

[Critias]

Right, but MFB's proposing an additional range penalty in addition to the usual "medium, long, extreme" stuff -- regardless of weapon used, just a flat "100m" mark, to represent bullet drop, wind, and a half dozen other things that don't care what range bracket you happen to be in (or whether it's an assault, sport, or sniper rifle that happens to be doing the shooting).

[Kagetenshi]

There are, but a rating 3 scope makes them all 4.

Edit: you're thinking that it's meant to stack? I thought he was proposing a flat replacement.

Edit^2: ok, stacking makes a lot more sense when I think about applying this to pistols and shotguns rather than sporting and sniper rifles.

~J

[Critias]

[Kagetenshi]

Quiet, you!

~J

[Angelone]

Reading comprehension > Me. It's early yet, and I'm recovering from a long weekend, my location isn't lying atm.

EDIT- You also can't put scopes on everything. So they aren't the end all be all.

[Critias]

S'all good. Truth be told, I partially just knew what the weird little bastard was talking about in the first place (because we'd chatted about this sort of thing before).

[Kagetenshi]

[Critias]

Think of it instead as a "sucks to be shooting from that far away, cool guy" sort of modifier, tacked on AFTER the normal "TN 9, but hah hah I dropped it to a 4, Mr. GM, with my snazzy scope" stuff gets all added up.

Because scopes are nice and all, and even if you tell yourself there's some fancy-schmancy gyroscope-linked-to-a-range-finder thingamajigger built into every single one of them in Shadowrun (to explain why they don't need to be centered), well, shit happens at long range (the aforementioned bullet drop, tumbling, windage, and simply the time it takes a bullet to travel a great distance). So this hypothetical +1 or +2 TN of MFB's is just there to make sure difficult long-ranged shots are, well, difficult long-ranged shots.

You can use a scope to shrug off completely the first 5 points (that jump from short range to extreme, and the ensuing shift in base TN), but since that's a little silly this is just a little something extra to make the would-be snipers maybe not get a snapshot one-shot-one-kill (and encourage a few Aim actions from time to time).

[Angelone]

Doesn't a smartlink take the things you mentioned into effect (well maybe not wind)? I remember the SL2 w/rangefinder combo is very helpful for long distance shooting -1 @ long and -2 @ extreme, so I have to believe bullet drop and such is compensated for. It's a good idea but it doesn't really work.

[Wounded Ronin]

[Critias]

[Angelone]

Really? That's odd, I honestly thought that's what the cybereye vision magnifiers were for. That makes them fairly pointless then doesn't it. It baffles the mind.

[Critias]

Yup. SR3, p. 280, "Imaging scopes may not be used with smartlink systems." SR3, p. 300 "This enhancement magnifies the visual image in the same manner as an imagine scope" (emphasis mine).

It's a not-unreasonable house rule to say that the cyberoptics don't come with the same penalty as the physical scopes, but if you do so keep in mind just how easy you're making most long ranged shots (especially those made with the above combo you mentioned, including the range finder and the SL II).

[Wounded Ronin]

[Kagetenshi]

[Link]

The base range TN (i.e. 4, 5, 6 & 9) seems a better model for weapon ballistics including barrel length, ammo grade etc. then for the ability to precisely aim at a distant target.
e.g. an SMG is TN9 at 81m while an assault rifle is TN9 at 351m. However, looking through the iron sights of the SMG or AR at a target 100m away would give much the same view.
A better model might have scopes affect the vision modifier rather than ballistic TN.
Here's the vision modifier chart (adapted from the Grimoire) I use for sorcery but maybe useful here.

[ Spoiler ]

VISUAL RANGE
0 – 150 None
151 – 300 +2
301 – 600 +4
601 – 1,250 +6
1,251 – 2,500 +8
2,501 – 5,000 +10
5,001+ BVR
Optics device - rating
Underwater VR-25%

As for the flight time, all SR weapons will reach their maximum range in a about a second or less (according to Raygun's data) while wind would affect the ballistic rather than visual TN. Perfect conditions might drop extreme range to 8 while a strong crosswind makes it 11. Aiming represents a shooter compensating for this.

[Stumps]

[Angelone]

One thing that it seems we've forgotten, which I just thought about, was the other modifiers (SR3 pg. 112). Such as cover, lighting, movement, and impaired visibility. IRL I have never shot in perfect conditions, and admittly all my experience is at a target range. Shadowrunners otoh, get into firefights in some pretty let's say challenging conditions, near darkness, people running around, taking cover, smoke or flash grenades going off, etc. Those modifiers in my mind make things fairly challenging.

[Stumps]

I wasn't under the impression that anyone had forgotten about those modifiers, but was rather addressing the base mechanics before those are stacked.

...personally...SR has too many modifiers.

[Angelone]

*shrugs* They weren't mentioned, that I saw, and as I said I had forgotten about them until basically that moment.

It makes no sense to complain about the base mechanics before mods. are stacked. Basically in whatever situation you are in one of those mods. are applicable. Unless of course you are executing a point blank target in a well lit room. If you ramp up the base without taking the mods. into consideration noones going to hit a thing.

[Critias]

Except that the vast majority of those modifiers can be sidestepped by various widgets, cyber mods, and other pieces of gear. I've run a street sammy up from 0 karma to the mid-200's. It was very, very, rare for his TNs to be higher than 5, after all was said in done, in all that time. I can honestly say he missed -- clean missed -- with one shot, ever, in all the time I ran him. Most of my characters tend to be shooters of one variety or another, be it magic or mundane (hell, even my mages end up with a 5/7 for assault rifles/their favorite), so I kind of know what I'm talking about here. TN mods can be chipped away at, and shots made pretty simple, more often than not.

Take a look at the lighting conditions table, for instance, and watch how those horrible TN mods just melt away against "low-light with eyelight," combined with thermo for those rare few cases you're in complete darkness. Tack on a -2 for a smartlink and occasionally a -1 for aiming, and don't ever forget Centering (for those gunbunny Adepts)...and TNs can be pretty low, pretty consistently. Remember the ability to augment a critical roll with combat pool, and frankly I'm surprised when a character misses.

Especially in a thread called "combat realism," Shadowrun characters hit way, way, too often. Look at the number of shots fired by soldiers or cops, versus the number of hits, sometimes. Now compare that to the number of shots fired, versus the number of hits, in your average Shadowrun game.

[nezumi]

The thing you're forgetting is after 60 years of improvements, runners SHOULD hit far more often. While cops hit somewhere between 1/6 to 4/6 of the time within 25 feet during a combat situation, they don't have smartlinks, vision modifiers, even basic things like laser sights (which I assume are a little different from the sights we have now).