 Combat Realism, How to make SR3 a better system |
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 Jul 5 2007, 11:40 AM
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#76
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Manus Celer Dei  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802  |
Having them start at max and sell down is, unless you do the selling via Flaws, identical to starting them at zero and giving them x+n build points, where x is how many you were giving them before and n is the value of selling from 5 down to 0. It isn't much of a solution.
~J |
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Jul 5 2007, 11:55 AM
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#77
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Err.. It seems like a fully functional solution, you've simply pointed out that there are two different ways of doing it.
So we can let PCs 'buy' their professional rating up to 5 (or whatever) at say 2 points a pop, and add 10 points to your build. Assumedly, all PCs will buy this up to 5 unless they have an awfully interesting reason why they want to suck at combat. Meanwhile, NPCs only have it based on what we feel is appropriate. On top of the standard modifiers, rent-a-cops have an additional +3 modifier on all combat actions (ouch), the Professor has +5 (double ouch), Lone Star has +2, excepting the real shock troops, and only the real violent sociopaths (legally or otherwise) play combat as written. Ultimately, I've seen at least four different attempts to force 'combat realism' on PCs and NPCs alike (creepwoodrun being one of the best examples), and I for one feel all of them have come off as heavy-handed and too predictable. If only there were a way to get people to PRETEND their characters are frightened, confused and adrenaline-charged, even when the player isn't. Some way that we can sort of 'act out the part' during the game. Hmm... |
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Jul 5 2007, 12:25 PM
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#78
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The problem was "we'd have to figure out what costs to assign". The solution proposed never defined a cost, it just resulted in adding total build points instead of eating them. If you'll notice, it still doesn't give any answer for what price Professionalism might be bought or sold for. ~J |
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Jul 5 2007, 12:25 PM
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#79
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Or you could just not worry about it because no one wants to be the schmuck who gets gut-shot and then spends the rest of the fight only at Moderate damage (but still in shock and unable to do anything), or the guy who flubs the roll when the lead starts flying and spends the duration curled up in a ball, crying.
We make fun of Creepwoodrun for a reason, gang. |
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Jul 5 2007, 12:50 PM
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#80
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I find a decent number of people want to be that schmuck. They're the melee guys who don't take Pain Resistance or carry big reach weapons.
(Not a slam on people who play that, my point is that a non-rare type of character will indeed have to bow out of most fights when they hit +2 from wound mods) ~J |
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Jul 5 2007, 01:01 PM
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#81
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
If you're a good melee guy, you don't need Pain Resistance 'cause you won't get hit (in a melee, at any rate) in the first place. ;)
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Jul 5 2007, 01:16 PM
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#82
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
*hides his rocker character with Unarmed 4, pistols 4 and no other appreciable combat skill*
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Jul 5 2007, 01:24 PM
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#83
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Rockers need Clubs or Polearms.
~J |
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Jul 5 2007, 01:47 PM
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#84
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
And leather pants.
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Jul 5 2007, 01:58 PM
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#85
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I went skin tight leopard print. The jacket is leather, and I didn't want to go full body leather.
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Jul 5 2007, 02:00 PM
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#86
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
If the Village People can do it, you can too.
~J |
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Jul 5 2007, 03:31 PM
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#87
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,286 Joined: 24-May 05 From: A 10x10 room with an orc and a treasure chest Member No.: 7,409 |
Why is this coming up so much all the sudden? Nothing to see here folks move along. From what I gather about real combat is accuracy goes out the window because you're trying to keep from getting shot. You don't shit yourself, you don't curl up into a ball and cry, you fall back on your training. You do the things you were taught, you take cover, you move from cover to cover trying to get a good shot, but until then you just put rounds downrange so that the enemy can't do the same. EDIT- Although I said you don't shit yourself I can't garantee you won't pee yourself, it's really nothing to be ashamed of. All the combat stories and vids I;ve heard or seen someone pees themselves. |
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Jul 6 2007, 01:39 AM
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#88
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Robocopolicious! |
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Jul 6 2007, 04:59 AM
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#89
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Accuracy goes out the window from more than that, too. A lot of it (for handguns especially, which are inherently less stable and accurate than long arms anyways) just has to do with the body's reaction to a high-danger stressful situation. The adrenaline that's so awesome in most such situations is really running against you in a shoot out. Tunnel vision is great for focusing on a threat (not so great for focusing on sights and a threat and what is behind the threat all at once, or for having a big enough field of vision to keep an eye out for additional bad guys). Hyperventilation via adrenalin is awesome for running or feats of strength (horrible for trying to hold a firearm steady). Your torso sapping all the blood/oxygen from your extremities is a fantastic stamina boost and way to keep running and physically fighting longer (but gives you the shakes, can make your hands less responsive or over-responsive, arms unsteady, etc). None of these problems help with the reloading process, either, of course. All the animalistic 'fight' mechanisms that boost strength and (running) speed go against the sort of perception and control a gunfighter needs. So while it's certainly true that a part of why accuracy in combat drops is because suddenly people are having to move and shoot, shoot at a moving target, shoot from different positions than a proper Weaver or Iscosceles stance, etc... much of that can be trained away (as you mentioned). A part of it is purely biological, though, and sometimes can't be helped. |
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Jul 6 2007, 09:59 PM
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#90
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 197 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,542 |
Hmm. Me thinks a cybermod is in order to regulate these effects. |
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Jul 6 2007, 10:04 PM
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#91
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
something like -1 TN on firearms test, and -2 CP.
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Jul 6 2007, 10:52 PM
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#92
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Or even a cyberarm and a cybertorso which theoretically would let you hold your pistol steady with mechanical precision. I always felt that cyberlimbs actually complicated a lot of combat related stuff if you wanted to try and speculate about all the effects a tool like that would have. Take melee combat, for example. A lot of combatives/martial arts deal with limb breaking, such as arm bars, or strikes to the elbow on an opponent's fully extended arm. That's all well and good for what it's worth today against a normal person. But if someone has a cyberlimb, setting aside the fact that it's probably hard to break in the first place, that whole mechanic of elbow-popping goes out the window since the arm can just be designed to bend back at the elbow! I always felt that there was so much room for speculation and dramatic rules rewrites, though, that it would pretty much be impossible to come up with a good and universally accepted way of handling theoretical issues like that. |
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Jul 6 2007, 10:59 PM
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#93
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
not really. as i understand it, it's largely an effect on the mind controlling your limbs. your hands don't shake as a direct result of the adrenaline; they shake because your brain is freaking out and sending crazy signals. i could be wrong--i'm no Dr. Tran--but that's what i've been led to believe. |
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Jul 7 2007, 01:37 AM
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#94
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Speaking from my shooting experience, my biggest problem was often holding the gun upright over prolonged periods, followed by compensating for breathing. Both of these would be trivialized, I believe, if I had cyberlimbs and a cyber torso. I've never shot under anything close to combat conditions, but I rather imagine those problems would be exacerbated, and that isn't simply a problem of the brain going crazy.
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Jul 7 2007, 02:16 AM
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#95
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I suppose that if we wanted to be very sensitive and detailed, we might exress these thoughts with the following hypothetical rule revision:
A Smartlink being used by somebody who doesn't have cyberlimbs to operate his gun with gets the -1 TN bonus when shooting since seeing little crosshairs in your vision is essentially like a longer-range version of a laser sight. However, if the shooter has a cyberlimb AND a smartlink then the smartlink software uses the cyberlimb to deliver mechanically precise and stable aimed shots at targets in the HUD, and so the -2 TN bonus is delivered, which is quite significant. |
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Jul 7 2007, 02:22 AM
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#96
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the best way to represent that would be to include the concept of fatigue--taking small amounts of stun damage just for being in a fight for an extended period of time. cyberlimbs, and especially a cybertorso, would increase resistance to fatigue.
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Jul 7 2007, 03:13 AM
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#97
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
Every time a rule like the last two are created, it produces an eventual state of confined protocol and expectation.
There would eventually be Sam's everywhere with cyber-arms for no other reason than these rules. As it is, it's poor enough that Smartlinks are like having an arsehole. This is a bad result. |
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Jul 7 2007, 03:45 AM
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#98
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
You're confusing me. Don't we all need an arsehole? If my arsehole were to suddenly disappear I think I'd go into full panic mode. |
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Jul 7 2007, 03:52 AM
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#99
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,286 Joined: 24-May 05 From: A 10x10 room with an orc and a treasure chest Member No.: 7,409 |
I think he's saying we all need smartlinks. Hopefully SL2s with rangefinders :P
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Jul 7 2007, 03:53 AM
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#100
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Right. His point is that a Smartlink is not merely recommended but practically obligatory—the intersection between the set of characters who will use a gun with any frequency whatever and the set of characters who would be silly to not buy a Smartlink is almost the set of all characters who will use a gun with any frequency.
~J |
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