 Magic Legality |
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 Jul 1 2007, 10:43 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 23-May 07 From: Colorado Springs, CO Member No.: 11,737  |
Yet again my gaming hobby and my real life are crossing over a bit. I have been working on getting hired as a deputy sheriff locally, and to that effect I have spent this weekend doing tests, patrol ride-alongs, and a tour of the county lock-up.
So, while out last night (this morning? ugh.. I knew I forgot to do something... like sleep) I started to talk to the officer I was riding along with about exactly how the law works in certain situations. That got me to thinking about Shadowrun, and what sort of hoops the corp and security mages have to go through to use magic. In this situation, my players are going to be DocWagon HTR. One is likely to be a mage. While all of the 'standard' security types are forced to use non-lethal force (tazers, narcoject weapons, gel rounds, etc), what would they do with the mage? One of my players seemed to think that there was no real way to PROVE that magic had been used. I didnt think that was accurate. I was under the impression that when you cast a spell, there is a 'finterprint' left on the target that can be traced to you. Not traced back to you, but some sort of energy that can be used to prove that you cast that spell. Problem is, nothing in any of my books seems to back this up. Being the GM, I am just going to say that DocWagon prohibits the use of physical damage spells except for the same circumstances that also allow lethal force with the others. But, just like with real weapons... if they use a direct damage spell to someone, they have to take that person back to the clinic with them, willing or not. I guess my question is... how is magic handled from a legal standpoint? I know spells and foci over a certain level are 'illegal' but how do they prove it? I mean, how can you be convicted of knowing too powerful of a spell? How can they know how potent a focus is? I mean for sure.. I know you can sense the power, but how well would something like that hold up in court? Anyone else think about this? How do the powers that be enforce magic related 'laws'? How about adepts and their powers? How do you license and regulate such a thing? |
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Jul 1 2007, 10:47 PM
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#2
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
It's called an Astral Signature...and...it's...covered...on (flips, flips, flips)...p. 172, SR3.
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Jul 1 2007, 10:49 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 23-May 07 From: Colorado Springs, CO Member No.: 11,737 |
Oh good.. I am not loosing my mind. I KNEW I had read that somewhere. I will check that out later.
Thanks! |
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Jul 1 2007, 10:50 PM
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#4
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
SR3, p172.
Why? More casualties means potentially more money, and I don't remember anything describing an obligation to treat people you shoot unless they have a contract. Even if they do, you aren't the one dispatched to them—there'll be another team along later to pick them up.
There are a lot of Awakened, and they've had 40 years to sort out the case law. It's pretty safe to say that a few decent Assensings by court-appointed aura readers will provide the legal standard for judgement.
De-magicalizing treatments. ~J |
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Jul 1 2007, 10:54 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 23-May 07 From: Colorado Springs, CO Member No.: 11,737 |
The "Missions" scenario with DocWagon spells out the rules for the team. One of the main ones is that if they use lethal force they must recover the target, willing or not, and bring that person to the clinic for treatment. Its good PR, and it also keeps the lawyers happy... so it says in the book.
Thats ONLY for lethal force. If you hose down a whole group of people with gel rounds or such, they are on their own. Can you remove the magical ability from a person? |
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Jul 1 2007, 10:55 PM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,286 Joined: 24-May 05 From: A 10x10 room with an orc and a treasure chest Member No.: 7,409 |
It's in that scenario in the Shadowrun Missions book. In, of course, the Docwagon part. I read that and I thought something along those lines, but with Docwagon "holding them for recovery" while they coughed up the cash or something useful to them. |
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Jul 1 2007, 11:03 PM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Long-standing and interesting SR question, the answer to which varies depending on jurisdiction. In most countries and extraterritorial corporate jurisdictions, you need permits to own or learn spells, spirits, or foci above Rating 2-combat spells, weapon foci and the like are restricted in the same manner as weapons. Certain countries (especially Great Britain) have laws against using detection spells, spirits, or the like to preserve privacy and prevent snooping, while in the UCAS and CAS spectral evidence (i.e. testimony given by spirits) is not allowed and neither are Mind Probe or Analyze Truth permitted in courts of law (conversely, many Awakened nations allow evidence gathered through magic). Astral fingerprints are a recognized form of evidence that requires expert testimony, usually by a member of the Lone Star Department of Paranormal Investigation or the equivalent. Also, there is a magical healer certification which magicians can obtain much like how a regular person would get CPR certified-otherwise, it can be technically illegal to apply magical first aid in some cases. |
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Jul 1 2007, 11:07 PM
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#8
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
...Great Britain has laws in place to preserve privacy and prevent snooping, in the future? Seriously? Great Fucking Britain, of all places?
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Jul 1 2007, 11:10 PM
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#9
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
NAGRL, p54: "When they make a high-threat pickup, it's in the DocWagon Corp's best interest if the goons create a little mayhem in the process. If they fire blind into a crowd, there's a good chance that some of the people they wound will also be DocWagon clients… which, of course, generates more calls, more teams dispatched, and more HTR income."
Yes. I don't remember any easy or clean way to do it, but it's as simple as repeated high-dose stimulant application. ~J |
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Jul 1 2007, 11:29 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,286 Joined: 24-May 05 From: A 10x10 room with an orc and a treasure chest Member No.: 7,409 |
pg. 33-34 SR Missions
The good PR rule.
The kidnapping for profit rule. |
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Jul 1 2007, 11:29 PM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Well I didn't say the government abided by them. |
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Jul 1 2007, 11:53 PM
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#12
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...along with the fact that the UK is still generally a disarmed populace in 2062 (except for the Nats & military) it makes running the Smoke quite an interesting challenge as my players have been finding out. |
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Jul 2 2007, 02:53 AM
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#13
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 23-May 07 From: Colorado Springs, CO Member No.: 11,737 |
Kagetenshi - I know about NAGRL and all of the DocWagon info in there. As Angelone posted, some of that is old data... at least using the adventure from Missions, which I am. At least for real ammo and lethal force.
Ancient History - Problem is... how can you know what someone knows? Its illegal to learn a spell above rating 2, but how is anyone to know if you actually KNOW that? What if you already know it, or learned it where it was legal? If you heal someone with a Treat-5, how can they know how powerful of a spell you are using? |
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Jul 2 2007, 03:37 AM
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#14
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Two two are not mutually exclusive. Doc Wagon would limit their own use of lethal force, but encourage others to use lethal force indiscriminately.
And I'd have thought that a disarmed populace would make Shadowrunning easier since you could pretty much accomplish anything by pulling out a gun and making an intimidation test, including intimidating the victim into not reporting the incident to the police. You can determine a spell's force by assensing it or its signature. |
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Jul 2 2007, 11:05 AM
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#15
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
If I buy a fully functional grenade launcher where it's legal, the US isn't going to worry about that when they arrest me. As for knowing that you know it, they do have to wait until you actually cast it most of the time.
By Assensing the target (or the spell itself, if they're on the scene during casting). ~J |
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Jul 2 2007, 11:12 AM
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#16
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
In 3rd edition; good luck. Getting enough successes on that particular assense to know the actual force is no easy roll. You're pretty safe casting at whatever force you want, as long as you don't cast it at a force equal to or greater than the assensing person's magic rating.
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Jul 2 2007, 11:24 AM
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#17
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
It's time-consuming, but the 'Star can always bring in a few Assensors at different times. If there are successful Assensings more than two hours apart, the 'Star has solid evidence that illegal magic was used. ~J |
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Jul 2 2007, 11:40 AM
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#18
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,286 Joined: 24-May 05 From: A 10x10 room with an orc and a treasure chest Member No.: 7,409 |
That's why smart runners wipe the spell when they can. Cuts down the chances you get busted for casting illegal spells, gets rid of your astral sig., and cleans up astral space iirc. So you aren't only getting rid of evidence you're doing your part to fight astral pollution.
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Jul 2 2007, 11:40 AM
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#19
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
You need at least 5 successes with Intelligence with Aura Reading being a complimentary skill. The Intelligence 6 guy with an Aura Reading skill of 8 might pull it off IF he's there when the spell is being cast and happens to be watching.
If they go into a lab and take their time trying to figure it out, 5 successes only tells you the 'general class of spell', nothing about force is given. And since signatures last a number of hours equal to the force of the spell, they're not really having alot of time to be waiting between assenses. No, you're pretty damn safe casting at any force you want, as long as you're not being watched by someone who is assensing (that's an action, not a random perception check because you're in his LoS) you directly, and even then, he's gonna have to be one heck of an assenser to figure out what force you just did. |
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Jul 2 2007, 11:45 AM
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#20
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
But 3 successes is enough to tell you it exists. If it exists now, and it exists two and a half hours from now, it has a minimum Force of 3 (except for that one Flaw, but Lone Star has never been the type to give people the benefit of the doubt. They don't have to, they're the cops!). One can assume that some imprecise version of that knowledge is possessed by Lone Star and other in-game entities.
~J |
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Jul 2 2007, 11:53 AM
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#21
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
You mean, assuming you assensed at roughly the time of the casting, as well as assuming that the aura disappears at that time, vs simply becoming unreadable/assensable. I don't know if it's intended to be like that, I know in our games, 24 hours after the casting we (who as runners often also investigate) still see an aura, but any rolls simply fail to extract any useful info after a couple of hours, and we -never- know when the info is no longer useful. I think you're making way too many assumptions, there simply is no mechanical way to know at what force a spell was cast, after it's been cast. And I'm sure it's not intended that you be able to calculate the force based on when an aura suddenly disappears (my own assumption).
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Jul 2 2007, 03:02 PM
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#22
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...yeah but the British being so "British" as the old London Sourcebook says, waving a gun usually results in an "oh my" response or at the worst "bloody 'ell". Furthermore Britian in the 2050s-60s is effectively a police state. It isn't illegal for the authorities to spy on your bum any time they want. Keep in mind, there is no due process in the UK. If the Triple O says you are guilty you, are guilty and you can't do a bloody thing about it. |
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Jul 2 2007, 03:29 PM
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#23
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Nope. You just get false negatives if you Assense it after the time of casting (if you get there two hours after, a Force 4 will slip by while a Force >4 won't).
Even then, you can discover the loss of information. It takes more Assensors to be certain they aren't just rolling low, but it's possible to within a reasonable standard.
Then the current mechanics should be brought into line with that idea. It's also not unlikely that Force will, for legal purposes, be determined by the magnitude of effects. ~J |
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Jul 2 2007, 05:25 PM
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#24
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Not seeing this false negative rule. I see a loss of a signature, but not of the aura itself. There's a pretty big difference between signature and aura, and I see it more akin to trying to notice exactly when the sun has set behind a cloudy sky. The sun is there, and with enough successes, you might be able to see it for those 2 hours as it sets, but no way to identify the exact moment because it's hidden behind clouds (behind the aura of the object). So, even after it's set, you could be convinced it hasn't set yet because of the light level. A signature isn't much different I think.
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Jul 2 2007, 06:21 PM
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#25
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I was going to try to delve into the sunset analogy, but it breaks down quickly. The basic idea is that as long as you know that someone was able to see the signature with all of its identifying information, and someone else was able to do so n hours later, then regardless of the time the spell was actually cast, it was at a minimum Force of Ceiling(n) (again, except for a certain flaw). If you come upon a Force 6 spell 4 hours later, you'll know it was at a minimum of Force 2. If you come on a Force 7 spell that same 4 hours later, you'll know it was minimum Force 3 and thus illegal without a permit.
~J |
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