Invoking an ally spirit, Not a munchkin question, I swear! Options

[Buster]

Can you Invoke your ally spirit? Or in another way, can you Invoke a bound spirit then turn that invoked bound spirit into an ally spirit and retain all the invoking benies?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[FrankTrollman]

In the pre-editting writeup, conjuring an Ally did not require or allow a Binding test and thus Ally Spirits were inherently impossible to Invoke. In editting, a Binding test was added for some reason, so it is now inherently possible for characters to Invoke their Ally spirits. I am not privy to the reasoning there, I argued against it.

But an Ally spirit has to be called up as an ally spirit. You can't just grab a spirit that you happen to like and make it into an Ally.

-Frank

[Buster]

EDIT: the ally is created from one of your bound spirits you already possess.

I'm guessing it would be handled by giving your ally one of the great form powers or powers from the invoking table since you can pick "from any powers available to spirits the initiate may conjure."

[reemul]

You have to pay for the powers of an ally spirit. If you want the ally to have the power associated with the great form, you just add that to the spirit formula and pay the karma - on the plus side, if you were capable of invoking that spirit, then the great form power is almost necessarily in the list of powers available to add. ("The initiate may give the ally extra powers available to spirits his tradition can conjure at a cost of 5 Karma each." SM, p104)

The ally conjuring ritual is very specific. You're essentially building a spirit according to the formula (or finding the exact spirit among all spirits that matches the description that came to you, depending on tradition and outlook), not acting on a spirit that happens to be in front of you and modifying it to fit. So having invoked some other spirit first doesn't apply. If you somehow managed to sneak Invoking into the ritual and have a great form spirit with powers that didn't match the spirit formula you are working from (and are paying karma for), the best you could hope for is that the ritual would fail without having to spend the karma points. At worst you still pay the points *and* have a pissed off free spirit on your hands from the botched binding. Conjuring, angering, and a botched binding setting it free all at one go.

Theoretically you could Invoke as part of a re-binding ritual, which would normally not be needed for an ally spirit since it doesn't owe limited services but isn't expressly forbidden that I can find. In that case the great form powers would only be associated with the bound services, not permanently attached to the ally. If you want a permanent upgrade, it's back to the rules on enhancing an ally. (SM, p105) This might also irritate the ally since, again, binding isn't required; though you might be able to convince it that you really need the extra benefits from the great form for a limited time.

[Particle_Beam]

Per FAQ, you cannot grant your ally spirit any of the shaking powers on the Great Form Table

[reemul]

Drat, I missed the part from the FAQ about great form powers not being available to an ally. Certainly a good rule, just one that I didn't know.

[FrankTrollman]

[Particle_Beam]

Well, couldn't we simply ask him about this?

[fistandantilus4....]

Frank showed me a really neat way to have an NPC create an Invoked Ally Blood Spirit.

:vegm: