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> Incompetence, and skill wires?
odinson
post Jul 2 2007, 11:57 PM
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Can someone get an activesoft for a skill they have incompetence in?
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Buster
post Jul 3 2007, 12:13 AM
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Sorry no page numbers, but my thoughts are that the active soft completely overrides the character's natural skill (or lack thereof). That's why you can't use Edge or take specializations in the active soft. Therefore even if the user is incompetent (with a capital I), the active soft works just fine. In fact, I would say that a user who has relied on active softs for a very long time will find their skills atrophying. That would explain why a starting character would have a 7 Charisma and still be incompetent in several social skills: he acquired the skillwires at such a young age that he never developed social skills on his own.
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odinson
post Jul 3 2007, 12:16 AM
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Thats kinda what I figured. I couldn't see any rules that would suggest otherwise so I figured I'd ask.
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Kyoto Kid
post Jul 3 2007, 12:26 AM
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...great, a whole new path to munchkinisim...

Conceivably a character could have a DP of 10 or more in the skills she is incompetent in and get the BP bonus for the quality to boot. That is very broken.

I would rule against it.

Negative qualities are just that, negative qualities.
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Buster
post Jul 3 2007, 12:32 AM
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As a powergamer, I would say it isn't broken at all. You can never be a super-face because you can't raise your skillwires above 4 or specialize.
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bibliophile20
post Jul 3 2007, 12:39 AM
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Yeah, you'd be the living embodiment of the old saying, "Jack of all trades, and master of none."

Really, they'd essentially be a living Swiss Army Knife; a good multi-tool, but no match for a specialty tool, a good emergency screwdriver, but no match for a good Craftsman Phillipshead.
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Wasabi
post Jul 3 2007, 12:54 AM
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Munchkin players beget munchkin villains.
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odinson
post Jul 3 2007, 12:57 AM
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Was there any ruling about skill wires and things like reflex recorder or synthcardium? Both of those would still be available to someone who was incompetent and they would both work with the skill wires right.
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odinson
post Jul 3 2007, 12:58 AM
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QUOTE (Wasabi)
Munchkin players beget munchkin villains.

Not really since none of the active skills can start above 3 and they can never get above 4, baring something in augmentation of course.
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Solkari
post Jul 3 2007, 01:08 AM
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I'd probably rule against it as well, for the same reason I don't let the awakened or technomancers take sensitive system. If the quality has no actual set-back to it, they shouldn't get the points.

If that doesn't quite work, you could have the character suffer from gremlins equal to the skillsoft rating when using it. Maybe there's no point of reference for the 'soft to work from, making him more prone to mistakes. Or perhaps the 'soft just isn't compatable.
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Buster
post Jul 3 2007, 01:17 AM
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QUOTE (Solkari @ Jul 2 2007, 08:08 PM)
I'd probably rule against it as well, for the same reason I don't let the awakened or technomancers take sensitive system.  If the quality has no actual set-back to it, they shouldn't get the points.

HUH? If anything, magi and technomancers should get DOUBLE bonus points for taking sensitive system. Sensitive System has much more of an impact on a mage or a technomancer than it does on say a hacker or a rigger. For a mage, a loss of only 1 essence is a huge detriment to his magical abilities and 1 essence buys very little cyberware and with sensitive system, 0.5 essence buys nearly nothing.
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Solkari
post Jul 3 2007, 01:26 AM
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The reason I've shot down sensitive system twice, is because the particular character isn't and won't ever be taking any cyberware, they were simply taking it for 15 free points. If they had at least a datajack I might have let it slide.
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toturi
post Jul 3 2007, 01:26 AM
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QUOTE (odinson)
Can someone get an activesoft for a skill they have incompetence in?

Yes, they can. But seeing the number of "House Rule!" whines above, you'd be well-advised to talk to the GM first. If you are the GM, then my opinion is that, by canon, you can.
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Glyph
post Jul 3 2007, 02:16 AM
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QUOTE (Solkari)
The reason I've shot down sensitive system twice, is because the particular character isn't and won't ever be taking any cyberware, they were simply taking it for 15 free points.  If they had at least a datajack I might have let it slide.

So how is permanently closing off an area for the character "free" points? If anything, that's more limiting to the character than taking some minimal 'ware would be.


As far as the skillwire munch, taking the flaw still gives you a point of notoriety, which detracts from street cred, which means you don't get a dice pool bonus that all of the other players will be getting. Skillwires are also have a lower cap than natural skills, and you can't use Edge with them. Plus, skillsofts are expensive, and using skillwires can leave you vulnerable to hacking (although most people with cyber are smart enough to use pure DNI). Finally, the incompetency will still be there any time that the skillwires are being used for any other skill.
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Solkari
post Jul 3 2007, 03:13 AM
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The players permanently closed off cyberware as an option the instant they selected to be a magician. Trust me, they see absolutely no benefit from giving up a point of magic for any cyber. The only way they'd have any is if it was forcefully installed.
</offTopic>

I must have missed the bit about flaws adding to notoriety when I read over Street Cred. It could easily be taken as laziness if you're using skillwires to cover skills others think you should have picked up.
I couldn't find anything about not using edge with skillwires in canon, but it makes a lot of sense. All the motions are computer generated, so there's no room for luck or flair.
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toturi
post Jul 3 2007, 03:35 AM
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QUOTE (Solkari @ Jul 3 2007, 11:13 AM)
The players permanently closed off cyberware as an option the instant they selected to be a magician.  Trust me, they see absolutely no benefit from giving up a point of magic for any cyber.  The only way they'd have any is if it was forcefully installed.
</offTopic>

So? The rules do not say that the Magician should not install cyberware and the Magician Quality does not impose additional penalties for doing so. Canon does not forbid Magicians from taking Sensitive System. If any GM wants to do so, it is his House Rule and a silly one at that.
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Solkari
post Jul 3 2007, 04:18 AM
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I just guess I'm never going to see how preventing every mage running the shadows from having Sensitive System is silly. If it were something that came up once in a while I'd probably allow it. In fact I did allow it the first time, and decided to say no the second and third. When every mage is taking Sensitive System, it seems a bit off.
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Whipstitch
post Jul 3 2007, 04:30 AM
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Gotta say, I agree 100% with Glyph and Toturi. Intelligently blending cyber & bioware is a great, great way to improve any character. Frankly, there isn't an archetype out there I'd willingly take sensitive system with. Period. If someone chooses to limit themselves that way, then they should get the points. I'd also like to point out that Awakened characters with sensitive system actually makes more than a fair bit of sense when you look at how cyber and mage have interacted in previous additions. Hell, if I were a GM, I'd consider making Sensitive system -mandatory- for Awakened characters, since cybered Awakened are some of the nastiest, most munchkiny fraggers out there.

I had much the same conversation the time my GM and I weighed the pros and cons of a Mage taking both Suppress Allergy and Severe Common Allergy: Soy. It's not enough to just add up the bp and immediately declare it overpowered. You have to consider that the mage still pays for the spell (of which he can only know a limited number of at creation) and takes a sustaining penalty as well as leaves his signature all over the place every time he comes within sniffing distance of a food court or hell, just a random trash can. In much the same way the incompetent guy with skillwires is limiting himself and then immediately blowing the points on a crutch anyway.

BTW, solkari, if your mages are all happily taking sensitive system, arrange for your runners to meet that good ol' hollywood action flick staple: The Poorly Lit Smoke, Sparks and Flame Factory. Nothing like ultrasound equipped guards, a rainy night and some smoke grenades to make a mage rue the day he passed up on cybereyes.
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odinson
post Jul 3 2007, 05:17 AM
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QUOTE (Solkari)


I must have missed the bit about flaws adding to notoriety when I read over Street Cred. It could easily be taken as laziness if you're using skillwires to cover skills others think you should have picked up.
I couldn't find anything about not using edge with skillwires in canon, but it makes a lot of sense. All the motions are computer generated, so there's no room for luck or flair.

The notoriety is in the street cred section. There was a list of flaws that give points to it.
The edge thing is in the section with the activesofts. That is actually slightly more limiting than I was thinking before because it would lead me to believe that you can't rereoll failures if edge cannot be used in the test.
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eidolon
post Jul 3 2007, 05:29 AM
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Having had player after player after player take flaws that they specifically intended to never suffer an actual negative consequence from (magician taking sensitive system for example and never planning or getting cyber), I tend to nix the attempt in most cases. If a player were to have a pretty good idea that the character would eventually actually have a flaw for having the flaw, I'd go for it, but free points for an intentionally designed and pigeon-holed character? Nope.
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Ravor
post Jul 3 2007, 07:32 AM
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Well personally I have to agree, if all of your Mages never take any cyber then you need to start introducing them to the negative modifiers that could have easily been avoided with Cybereyes, ect...

The simple fact of the matter is that there are so many ways you can burn one point of Essense and get tons of goodies from that I can't see any smart players not choosing bits of cyber here and there.

Of course if you are looking for a better Houserule then I'd suggest something along the lines of making Trodes, glasses, ect not be the "magic-always-stay-in-place-no-matter-what" wonders they currently are.
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Critias
post Jul 3 2007, 07:58 AM
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In SR3, I would whole-heartedly agree with you (particularly comparing the bio index loss of muscle toner, etc, compared to the cost for an Adept to boost his stats magically) -- but it seems to be the case quite a bit less in SR4. Pretty much anything you could do with your eyes, you can do with goggles, glasses, or even contacts now. The difference between a few bonus dice and a -2 TN makes a huge difference between whether or not a built-in smartlink is really a necessity for a serious shooter or not (to clarify, I believe they were a fantastic deal in SR3, and aren't necessarily as important in SR4)...

They really seem to have balanced out the magic/cyber thing a little better, at least for Adepts at any rate (who were usually the ones contemplating a little Essence lost in exchange for a quick fix of cyber/bioware, in SR3). The biggest benefit most actual spellcasters would get would likely be the cyberoptics you mentioned -- and with the tech level bumped up enough you can just wear contacts instead, I don't see the allure (especially given the new importance of the Magic stat).
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Jaid
post Jul 3 2007, 11:37 AM
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QUOTE (Critias)
They really seem to have balanced out the magic/cyber thing a little better, at least for Adepts at any rate (who were usually the ones contemplating a little Essence lost in exchange for a quick fix of cyber/bioware, in SR3). The biggest benefit most actual spellcasters would get would likely be the cyberoptics you mentioned -- and with the tech level bumped up enough you can just wear contacts instead, I don't see the allure (especially given the new importance of the Magic stat).

cybereyes can be used to target spells, because they are payed for with essence.

otherwise, you need optical vision mods. which you can't get in low-light and thermal.
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Critias
post Jul 3 2007, 11:43 AM
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I'M NEVER WRONG!

...okay, okay. Maybe just this once. *shrugs* I stand (partially) corrected. ;)
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2bit
post Jul 3 2007, 01:03 PM
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QUOTE
Can someone get an activesoft for a skill they have incompetence in?

Classic case of better living through technology.
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