Lifespan for Dwarves and Metavariants? Options

[DSHolmes]

Hiya!

What is the expected lifespan of Dwarves in the Shadowrun game? I know the SR 3 rules says 'over 100 years', but that leaves a great deal of wiggle room.

Also, has there been any discussion on what the 'aging' ranges are for non humans? Such as when a Dwarf, Ork, or Troll is considered 'middle aged', or even 'elderly'?

Finally, do metavariants basically have the same lifespans as their 'underlying race' (Menehune and Gnomes living Dwarf ages, Cyclops living as long as Trolls, etc).

Thanks!

[Aku]

i dont think we really know at this point, as it hasnt even BEEN 100 yrs yet since they've appeared, so non of the meta's would've died of old age, other than orcs i tihnk

[DSHolmes]

Thanks! Just for some more info...

Reason I'm asking is that I'm wanting to design some NPCs that are metahumans that were born around the time of the Awakening, and am somewhat curious as to say, the physical condition of a 53 year old Dwarf. Would he look like the Human equivalent of 20s, 30s, middle aged?

I know SR fiction such as "Never Trust an Elf" indicates pretty much every Elf alive looks like a teenager, and that any Ork or Troll born during UGE should be dead, or almost dead, by 2064 (except for one born before, who Goblinized, who apparently still retains the Human lifespan, which doesn't make sense to me, and I don't consider that 'canon' in my campaign).

[Moon-Hawk]

[DSHolmes]

LOL!

...and...(old/distinguished/greying/prepubescent/etc..) :D

[Omar the Falcon]

I have read about elves that are still alive from the 4th age. I dont know how/why this happened, though the term 'immortal' is thrown around a bit. Not sure how canon all of that is.

I also remember reading that people who goblinized retain their human lifespan. I think thats a fair trade for being a bit mentally unhinged... as it is said that those folks are known to be.

I imagine a dwarf would look 'adult' by their teens, with a full beard by 16. I was growing a spotty one at the time myself, and I have a friend who has been shaving since 12 (though we are both more ork/troll like..). After that, perhaps grey at 50+? Maybe earlier, but doubt it. Once they hit 18-20, they will probably look that way the rest of their lives... with the addition of grey hair and other 'old age' traits (loose/tight skin, spots, bad knees, etc).

An elf would probably retain that 'graceful nobility' look through their lives. Once they got to 60-70 or so (?) they might sport grey hair, with other traits showing as they got older. I imagine most elves get carded for age into their 30's or later.

Humans we know.

From what I understand, Orks are 'grown' by 16. In one of the books (SSG I believe) one of the orks comments about how it isnt really right that orks have to wait until they are 21 to drink, even though they are pretty close to middle-age at that point. I tend to agree, mostly because I think of all the metahuman types I can identify the most with them. At 6'2" (average height for an ork), 268lbs (a bit heavier than average), and a big build... I was buying beer at 16 without getting carded, and started to shave at 14 (not because I wanted to, like many pre-teens do..), and when I keep the facial hair on I am generally thought to be about 5-10 years older than what I really am. I know the feeling of being 'grown' before the law recognizes me as such. Expected to act like an adult, but not given any of the rights or privileges of one. Guess thats why I generally play an ork in SR... ;)

Trolls I have not read up on enough to comment. I just cant remember the details that well.



Hope that helps.

[Kagetenshi]

[MYST1C]

I don't remember where but in some piece of fluff it said that while elves seem to stop aging at some point and continue to look young dwarves instead look aged (by human standards) very early but, like elves, from that point onwards don't show signs of further aging.

[Talia Invierno]

[Adarael]

The answer is, of course, "They live as long as you want them to."

It goes like this: nobody really knows how long dwarves and elves will live. If you want them to have hundreds of years of lifespan, they can. Personally, I don't. In my world, dwarves will die of old age at around 150, and elves at aroun 200. Humans will die at aroun 100, 105. Orks and trolls make it to about 75 or 80.

One of the things I've always been irked at is that there's always been a miscommunication between the BBB and players about 'average lifespan.' The BBB notes that orks and trolls have a very short lifespan. Most players seem to take that to mean that orks and trolls are 'adults' at around 12, not factoring into this that 'average' for those numbers definitely includes premature death due to environment and whatnot. How do I figure this? Humans live to an average of 55, according to the BBN.

[Omar the Falcon]

The comments made by Orks and Trolls in the various sourcebooks would imply that they feel they are 'fully grown' by their mid to late teens. I will review and cite a source of this if I get the time.

Not that they are adults, but the idea that they are the physical equivalent to an adult is not that far fetched today... just imagine things in 2060. As I said, I was more or less 'fully grown' around 16-17, and able to pass for 21+ at that age. Is that 'typical'? No way.. I have friends that are working on 28-30 that still get carded because they look so young. It all just depends...

[Adarael]

Yeah, I'm familiar with that. Physical adulthood is fine, since the marker of physical adulthood has throughout history really meant "big enough to pull your share of work." But the implication that they are adults at 12-14, in the same way a human might be 'adult' at 25-28 is a little bit off. They just don't have the life experience for it, unless they've lived messed-up lives, or are from a war-torn nation or something.

[Omar the Falcon]

I generally dont regard age as the measure for who is and is not an 'adult' anyway. I have met too many kids that have just seen and been through more than they should of, and too many guys that will just never grow up, no matter how old they are.

I think it was more in reference to the legal drinking age.. when an Ork is 21, they have been an 'adult' for several years. While they might not have the lift experience of a 25+ year old, I imagine they have seen their share, considering they have been 'grown' for some time by that point.

[FrankTrollman]

Orks get Methuselah's syndrome (SoA, p. 133), a condition which causes them to rapidly age and die. Not all of them get it, and it appears to be treatable, at least by Evo (and probably DeBeers-UO).

So the stuff in Never Trust an Elf can be reconciled like this: The old man who goblinized didn't get Methuselah's syndrome and his kids did. Nothing special about goblinized/non-goblinized. It's just that in 2064 every goblinized Ork from the first wave that you talked to would be aging at a normal human rate - any of them who got Methuselah's syndrome would be dead.

-Frank

[Kronk2]

The thing that interests me is how the short lifespan influences education for trolls/orks.

And how integrations affects school life. I mean you have a 13 year old troll boy and elf girl in a class, thats makes dating in the class a real interesting issue. I could easily see a troll middle schooler hitting on high school chicks.

[tisoz]

[DSHolmes]

Thanks everybody!

Okay, well, at least I feel better knowing I can make some GM calls without having a player throw some supplement or fiction in my face. :P

[Lazarus]

It's a little late but I'll throw my 0.02 :nuyen: in the hat.

I pretty much side with Adarael here. In my SR world Orks and Trolls live as long as humans. No one knows at least and for me Methuselah's syndrome is just Humanis bulldrek because most humans are scared of Orks and Trolls for various reasons.

I have Orks & Trolls reach physical but not mental or emotional maturity at 12 which would be the typical 18 for a human. The reasons they have shorter lifespans and less INT traits are because they don't have access to good healthcare, food, jobs, basically most of the things that up your lifespan. It has nothing to do with their race.

One of the things I added was most Orks and Trolls were put into camps not just in Japan, but all around the world. <That may be canon. Not sure.> One of the ways they could get out was by joining the military at least in the CAS and the UCAS. The thinking is the same as the reason certain African nations use children in their armies. A physically tough Ork with the mentality of a 12 year old is an ideal soldier if you want someone to follow authority without question. Is it ethically despicable? Hell yeah! But when have ethics and morality ever stopped the government from doing something?

[Kagetenshi]

[tisoz]

Supposedly, large humans have a shorter expected lifespan than average size people. I am not referring to weight but to height and general build. It may be that orks and trolls follow this trend, and thereby add to the shorter lifespan of tougher living conditions.

[Critias]

[Lazarus]

I disagree. I think by saying that Orks and Trolls are different in the way the game sets it up is flawed.

First, the reason that they have less mental stats, from a meta-game stand point, is to balance out the fact they get better physical stats. For me this is short-sighted and really doesn't make sense for a realistic viewpoint. It's the same reasoning that in AD&D demi-humans had level limits and humans didn't. Or demi-humans couldn't be certain classes. Right. Elves are some of the best fighters in the AD&D world but couldn’t be 20th level?

The view is that no one would want to play humans if you gave metahumans the same stuff as humans with bonuses stat wise. Why? Elves get nothing but bonuses in the SR World and not everyone plays them. To me thinking like that is the inverse of min/max thinking.

So for the typical Ork or Troll I let them use the same racial modifiers as in the book, however players can offset that with BP and corresponding background. And no I don't make players spend BP to play a metarace. It's free.

My view is not to fix the problem with stats and age limits but to fix it with the world. Let's face it the world is racist against Orks and Trolls a lot more then elves, dwarfs, and most certainly humans.

When I first introduced the above ruling players all wanted to play Orks or Trolls. I told them that's fine, but "You're gonna have problems takin' a s**t." After some quizzical looks I explained that the world is made for humanity, not metahumanity, especially not Trolls. Everything you buy will have to be custom made and you'll have a higher lifestyle.

They didn't think it was a big deal. So I told them, "Just imagine trying to move through a typical office building. You're not going to be table o move through single doorways quickly. You'll have to duck you head and shoulders being in normal sized rooms which means unless you like to duck walk you're field of vision is limited. Forget about using an elevator as a group, weight limits. Even going to the bathroom in a stall is going to be a challenge."

That's not to mention buying clothes, housing, cars, even using the subway or riding a bus is big hassle to you and everyone else. Hell even guns would have to be modified just to fit your hand.

That's not to mention the daily racism you would encounter in everyday life and in the shadows. Trying to fast talk your way into an office? Forget it the Sec. guard is going to look extra hard at your fake I.D. Don't have a human, elf, or dwarf to be a face then chances are you won't get any really good deals or runs. And on and on.

So needless to say I get a lot short Orks and Trolls, but they still have to deal with the racism. My old veteran players played humans mostly. They had a much easier time. Only when a player wants to handicap himself in my games does he play an Ork or Troll.

As far as the age thing goes. I disagree again. Bigger humans have shorter lifespans. Orks and Trolls have higher Body Att. automatically. That is the att. used to resist diseases and such. O&Ts tend shrug off things that would knockout a human. That to me balances out the mass thing. So under ideal conditions they live about the same.

[Kagetenshi]

[Xirces]

The only SR game I've ever actually played was SR1 and, honestly, I think the way that metas were dealt with there was more sensible - Priority A AND an required allergy :)

That actually seemed to marry up to the in-game fluff about the numbers of metas - most characters were actually human, but if someone really wanted to play something out of the ordinary they could.

Nowadays it seems like the mundane human is the poor sibling of SR characters - just about every concept can be done better by a meta (hey, that rhymes) or by a magician and/or adept.

Other than that, SR1 was crappy but I still think the metahuman proportions should be reflected in the rules.

[Lazarus]

I do agree with what you saying Kagetenshi but it's still free points with no penalties plus you use CHA with every social skill in the game. Etiquette, Negotiation, even Interrogation & Intimidation go off of CHA. If you have an elven face character with a maxed out CHA you're in pretty good shape. If you take the Att. Bonus from the Companion you can have a starting CHA of 9! That's before Pheromones and all that garbage. With a 9 or higher CHA you're not losing many Contested rolls.

I know in my games social skills were used a lot more than combat skills.

That's not to mention the DEX bonus, the Low-Light vision, the reduced racism, ability to look more human if you want, and the fact the metarace has two fraggin' countries I'd elves are doing the best out of the metaraces.