Lifespan for Dwarves and Metavariants? Options

[Adarael]

I have no problem with orks and trolls having less intelligence than others. Mostly I try to play this up as "less smarts, more instinct". It's the interpretation that the BBB's figure of "45-50 years average lifespan" means a troll is the equivalent of 60 when he hits 30 years old. I mean, a human who takes care of themselves can still be quite active up to 40, although they'll never be a top-notch athelete after a certain point.

I'm just tired of wizened old man orks who are 35. I think it's dumb. Not on the part of the game, but on the way many players interpret the game.

Also: thank god for less elves. Way too many people I associate with played elves. I also refuse to let the Blandness merit and super-high charisma go hand in hand, just to keep that kind of stuff in check. Because no, you can't have a face to launch 1000 ships if people are gonna forget it 5 minutes later.

[Angelone]

Intelligence is SR poorly labeled, it isn't how smart someone is but a mixture of perception, analytical thinking, and memorizing abilities. A character's intelligence is measured by their skills. It annoys me to no end when someone plays an INT one troll or ork with like 800 skill point like an idiot.

The way I look at ork and troll lifespans is the same way I look at people like Andre the giant's. The heart isn't very big at all and it struggles to pump blood in people that size so they just die young. They don't get old faster, their heart just can't keep up. That compounded with the fact that the majority live in the barrens and don't have good medical care.

EDIT- btw I'm using SR3 as the basis for the definition of INT.

[Lazarus]

Nah I don't buy the Andre the Giant hypothesis with Orks and Trolls either. For those guys yeah it contributes to it but let's not forget Andre was a pretty heavy drinker too.

And to say that Orks and Trolls are bigger then humans in every other way physically except the heart doesn't fly either. "Oh they're totally different, except of course where it makes no sense and hurts them." Sorry, no, not buying it. Trolls and Orks would probably have stronger hearts then humans. It's just one more reason to be scared of them.

And if you say that they are different biologically then Humanis does have a point in trying to oppress them. Basically your average Ork and Troll are going to have a 1 or 2 INT which means the bulk of them will be severely retarded to really, really stupid.

It's fine if that's how you want to play your world, but when you look at Orks and Trolls at how they are portrayed in the writings and then their stats it doesn't add up.

To me it makes more sense for people to fear Orks & Trolls because not only do they look different but they are bigger, stronger, and tougher then humans. It's not like they're elves who are beautiful, naturally cool and graceful. Or Dwarves who are shorter but stocky and who would sort of be acceptable because we already have little people and Disney. But Orks and Trolls are the stuff nightmares are made from.

And yes I lowered the height for Trolls and Orks. The tallest Troll is only about 8 to 8 1/2 feet tall in my game. But that Troll is about 4 feet wide! Even a 6'8" Troll who bodybuilds is going to be massive. Probably tipping the scales at 400 lbs or more. Now add a huge jaw, head, tusks, horns, and bone deposits and I'd be pretty intimidated by that.

[Angelone]

[Solomon Greene]

[Critias]

[Kagetenshi]

Though they don't produce hybrids, the metaraces can still interbreed. They're the same species.

Otherwise, I pretty much agree.

~J

[Moon-Hawk]

Right, it's not racist or speciesist. It's subspeciesist. :-)
/nitpick

But yeah, I agree with the point. They are different. Quantitatively and provably. But that doesn't begin to answer the question of whether that difference should have any bearing on their rights, and that's where the issue gets interesting (and heated)

[DuckEggBlue Omeg...]

I liked the take on the 'acceptable' views of humanis presented in the shadowtalk article on knasser's site.

How it's 'unfair' to make trolls and orks to waste years of their life in normal schools when they don't live very long and have difficulties learning anyway and how it would be better for every one if they got streamlined through the system and into the labour force where their physical attributes could be put to good use.

Couple that with the claim of the shorter average lifespan is more statistical rather than an indication of 'natural' lifespan, but that the general public, much like many players, simply don't realise this, and it works doubly well.

Ofcourse SR genetics have aways been odd. Metahumans are catergorised as different subspeices, but 'race' seems to manifest more like eye or hair colour. Ofcourse there's an inherent magical nature to the races, so I geuss comparing to regular genetics is largely redundant.

[Lazarus]

<Disclaimer: I'm not arguing what's canon only my viewpoint which differs from those sources. I think my viewpoint stays within the spirit and context of the SR world, however I'm not trying to argue what pg. XXX says. I don't care. I've read it, and I disagree.>

First I'm going to say that it all depends on whether you agree with the canon or not. I don't. Also I'm not arguing what's in the canon because from that standpoint you're all right on the money. What I'm arguing is whether the canon makes sense. For one I'll point out my personal bias concerning Fantasy Literature is that Orks, Trolls, Dwarves, & Elves all seem to come from the same annoying, watered down stereotype.

Second, different canon sources have different standards. It's not uniform and whether it's intentional or not it does bring up an interesting point. Either the canon sources are incorrect or they can be up to interpretation. And either way I can make an argument for my viewpoint.

So personally I feel the game world is enhanced by saying the metaraces really aren't that far removed from humanity. I think you can make that argument from a creative standpoint because all metaraces were once human anyway, with the exception of Immortal Elves and Dragons. If it's genetics then I can say they're closer to humans in many respects, they are simply an evolution. If it's magic then I can say whatever I want.

And Critias your "misguided hippy lovefest garbage" comment. Really? A fallacy? Come on you do better than that. Oh wait you did in the same post.

For me saying it's mostly a result of environment, subspecies, species, or racial <Whatever you want to call it> prejudice adds more flavor to the world. In your and the canon's worldview it's pretty cut and dry, black and white. Well I hate that. It's a personal choice I know but it doesn't add much in the way of realism.

As far as metaraces being different biologically in some respects I agree with that statement. From a purely physical standpoint Troll and Orks are stronger, tougher, taller, bigger than humans. In that respect they are different. However I differ when it comes to INT, but not completely. For me all races have the potential for the same starting mental att, except dwarves who get a leg up in WILL, unless you were raised in another environment then you don’t get the bonus.

In my games if you grow up a “normal� Troll or Ork you get the penalty. That reflects your background or if you want the brain damage you suffered when going through goblinazation. But if you want to play an Ork or Troll from a background with better schooling then you can buy that penalty off with BPs. You can even take a disadvantage and not have great strength or body. Couch potato, genetic defect, whatever you want. For me this let’s the player personalize the character instead saying “Wow I get to be a big dumb Troll again. Awesome! Okay let me buy the Dikoted Combat Axe.�

[Critias]

So in your head Orks and Trolls are just flat out better than humans. They're bigger, stronger, healthier, breed faster and birth bigger litters, and are just as smart (when The Man isn't keeping them down).

Okay. Have fun.

[Lazarus]

I think that's overstating it a bit.

Another thing I failed to mention is that Orks and Trolls don't have litters of kids in my SR world. All Metahumans have the same pregnancy cycles, same amount of kids for each one <Statistics wise>, and live about the same lifespan under ideal conditions.

However, the stats for Orks and Trolls apply with corresponding INT negatives if a player chooses to play a "typical" Ork or Troll. Basically that means they were probably from a street or low lifestyle background. School access was limited and they can have some form of military service.

<Note: In my SR world the UCAS, CAS, and several European Countries allow Orks and Trolls to enter military service at the age of 12. A lot of Orks do it, but most Trolls are limited in the jobs and branch they can belong to due to their height and mass.>

Are Trolls and Orks better as you put it? Sure, in the physical arena but honestly how often in even today's post modern world does great strength come into play? How many office jobs require that you be able to deadlift 400+ lbs for reps?

Sadly most Orks and Trolls can do jobs no one else wants to do. Trash pick up, military service, possibly police, fire, and other stuff. Bouncer seems to be a popular choice according to the various SR run mods. The jobs where the pay isn't great, they expect a lot out of you, and there is a higher chance of injury and death.

So if you buy off the INT negs. with BPs then you are an exceptional Ork. If you look at population percentages and apply the stats from the book straight across then no the Ork and Troll populations aren't "better". In fact they are worse off then humans. Do they have the potential to be a smart as humans on the whole? Yes, but with Humanis and institutional racism being what they are I wouldn’t see that happening for hundreds of years.

[tisoz]

[Lazarus]

Yeah with that crossed-out line it totally negates my argument. Awesome.

[Ed Simons]

[Fortune]

I loves elves! :love:

They're definitely not cost-effective, but people play them anyway.

[mmu1]

[Kagetenshi]

[Pendaric]

There was me thinking this was about the roleplaying of a character.
Sheesh the greater flexiblity of the build point system make the plain old mundane human the best bang for points.
But your elf has a better mohawk and will live longer barring imminent death at the hands of corp goons. Kick back, live fast and listen to 80's metal as you look good on the run.

In a vain attempt to return to thread, does the age range matter for a runner? Dwarves live for 150-250 years, for a elf more. Save for the interesting effects on psycology this produces and the social ramifications most runners are toast or 'retired' long before this.
Trolls and orks due to genes and socio-economics live shorter lives. End of the day more reasons to run.

[Kagetenshi]

Actually, Elves are even more expensive under Priority, IIRC. Also, no Elf will ever have a mohawk as good as a Troll's mohawk. They do get a bonus to mullets, though.

~J

[Lazarus]

I don't know Kage. I scan what you're typing and I don't disagree with you but I still think an elf going just by the racial mods makes a pretty good Face character although with the racism factor humans more then make up for that. Unless you're dealing with Tir elves then not so much.

If you want to base everything in combat terms and Karma cost then yeah Faces with High CHA aren't that great however here are some things to consider:

1. Every group that hopes to last for awhile needs a good Face character.

Let's face it a lot of SR is doing Legwork. If you read any published module that is most of what you do. After you pay each contact for info you usually don't have much left if you even complete the run. Having a high CHA and social skills means more nuyen, more info gathered, etc. etc.

You're gonna have enough guys who want to role-play gun bunnies. In our games we didn't like to run combat for several reasons: It took too damn long and it was usually pretty brutal. So if you can get something by talking instead fighting then you're better off IMHO.

2. Don't underestimate the power of Astral Combat

If you're gonna fight bugs, and at least five published mods have them, then you're going need a good magical weapon and a good CHA stat will help a lot.

[Kagetenshi]

[Lazarus]

Nah I feel yah. I'll admit I'm not up on SoTA: 2064, but I had a Face with a maxed out CHA and high Negotation and Etiquettes (Street & Corporate). It took him awhile to get there but once he did it was pretty sweet. None one could touch him in a contested social roll.

Granted he could do other things, but that was what he did best.

Ever since I played Barabbas, my Face character, I'm a big believer in high CHA characters, or at least having one in the group.

For me it just helps all around. Get better deals on swag and buying equipment. More info from contacts. More money from Johnsons. And if you do nuyen for Karma it sort of pays for itself in the long run.