Bound Spirits - what good are they?, Is Binding worth the investment? Options

[Jaid]

i assume he's confused karma pool with edge =P

[Cain]

Actually, you can use karma. If you burn a point of Edge on the summoning test, you'll score an automatic critical success. You then spend karma to replace that Edge point. Expensive, but occasionally worth it, as you can earn 4 services from a force-10 spirit that way.

[Lilt]

Eep... Jaid's right. Edited.

Not played for a while, seem to have slipped back into 3rd edition mode... Partially.

Another point:
I'd expect a bound spirit to more readily spend its edge to assist the character, whilst I'd expect a summoned spirit to only spend its edge on self-preservation.

[Particle_Beam]

Depends. One conjurer who got bad vibes will surely entice every spirit to actively try resisting the binding ritual, with edge if it needs too. After all, their life depends on it.

[laughingowl]

[Wakshaani]

And mad props, here, for the Life and Death notice.

Let's say that you're down to your last Physical box and, in the process of not getting more, you now have a happy pile of 7 Stun damage as well.

Bad day for you.

Luckily, you have a Spirit of Man on call! *ding!* No need to make summoning rolls and risk a Bad Scene, he's right there, ready to serve! Cast a heal spell on you, then, if needed, can conceal you and whisk you away, all quiet-like.

Yeah, that was an expensive one-way ticket, but at least it was to a destination that you'd like.

[laughingowl]

AS a sideline to the whole thing if you are going to be a frequent summoner / binder, then raising enchanting becomes well worth it.

If you can make a Enchanting+Magic (force, 1 day) extended test, you can cut the cost from ¥500 to ¥400 right off by buying radical instead of the binding ritual materials.

If you by the raw materials ¥50 per unit and process them into refined yourself (Enchanting + Magic (number of reagents, 1 day) Extended Test) you can cut the cost to ¥200 per force of spirit (4 refined units).

If you have a fair amount of downtime you can cust the cost even more by processing the raw into radicals:

a 28 day process (requiring you to tweak it every 8 hours), can process up to your magic in materials. a simple Magic+Enchanting (2) test suceeds. Only 2 radicals (per force) are needed for ritual materials. So 'buying' your goods it is possibly only ¥100 per force of spirit bound.

If you really have time to kill you could gather them yourself for totally free binding, but 1 raw per (survival+intution: 8, 1 hour) test to get a single raw really isnt worth ¥50 IMO.


Still a binding process at ¥200 nuyen per force with an extra 2 days thrown in for 'processing' isnt such a bad gig.

[Mistwalker]

If you really like binding, and get the Invoking Metamagic ability, you can get great form spirits.

Guardian and Task spirits have Endowment ability, if greater form and you rolled well. This will allow them to give you one of their powers, and they have combat, physical and technical skills as optional powers.

So, your Guardian spirit force 6 grants you heavy weapons rank 6, while your Task spirit force 6 grants you Gymnastics 6, or Demolitions 6.
Give your Guardian spirit a grenade launcher or HMG, and he can watch your back.

There are other options out there as well.

So, I would say binding is usefuk.

[Particle_Beam]

That's of course assuming the heavy drain of an invoked force 6 spirit didn't knock you down. :P

[Dancer]

[Buster]

[Dancer]

An aside from Binding - is 'cast and sustain this spell on me' a suitable service for a Summoned spirit? If so, you could issue it as a Remote Service, allowing you to Summon another spirit. While everyone's armoring up and checking their weapons before the run, the mage Summons a spirit and orders it to buff him. It sits down on the floor to sustain the spell as he Summons the next. Half a dozen spirits of man later he lies down for an hour to clear his head, then goes on the run. All the spells vanish at sunrise, but hopefully he's well clear by then.

[Jaid]

2 things (to 2 separate posts):

1) having a spirit in the astral with the orders to do something if you go unconcious is a bad idea. specifically, when you go unconcious and the spirit is present, the spirit goes uncontrolled, iirc. you could give it other contingent orders though, imo.

2) they closed the unbound service summoning nonsense. you can't send infinite spirits on remote services.

[Particle_Beam]

[Wasabi]

[Buster]

[laughingowl]

Any good math majors out there? /em duck ...


Looking at break points:

If having a spirit to sustain spells.

What is the most effective level at a given dice pool... (turn per nuyen).

Not counting downtime 'binding', just ¥X spent on ritual material versus Y Services (*Force) equal Z turns of sustained spells.

Seems to me a low force 2-3 spirit with ALOT of services is likely cheaper way to have a sustain spirit then a single high force.

Also on a related note:

Can Ally spirits Sustain spells?

"An ally spirit follows the standard rules for spirits with the following exceptions:"

Goes to gives changes to Aid Sorcery and Aid Study but no mention of spell sustaining and spell binding.

Likewise a little later:


An ally spirit’s services are never exhausted. Ally spirits can be called upon to perform any service possible of an unbound orbound spirit (p. 179, SR4) an unlimited number of times. Such services include Aid Sorcery and Aid Study (see above), Loaned Service, Resist Drain (see below), Spell Binding, and Spell Sustaining, among others. Note that ally spirits do not count towards the initiate’s limits on bound or unbound spirits.


Specifically mentions Spell Sustaining .. Now the question. the 'exception' section says Aid Sorcery and Aid Study, the ally is not bound to a particular catagory of spells, should this also be for Spell Sustaining? or is this limited by the home plane of the spirit.

So is a pile of force 1 ally spirits in the mages bunker the 'cheapest' sustaining foci out there?

Force of spirit doesnt limit the force of spell.

Unlimited services used at a rate of 1 per turn, doesnt run out...

Nothing I can see limits more then one ally spirit.

So mage a few force 1 ally's in the mage's bunker and mage has sustained:

Force X Increase Willpower
Force X Increase (other drain attribute)
Force X (why not if going to be sustained) Increase Reflexes
Force X Increase Reaction
Force X Increase Body
Force X whatever you want.

All for potential 8 karma (for sustaining ally spirit) (not counting the intial intiatation).

[Buster]

Seems fair to me, a metamagic power is definitely not a cheap investment. Also, you can't hide the ally spirit like you could hide a focus or quickening sustained spell with extended masking. And a low-force ally can get disrupted fairly easily. Besides, a criminal has to take Flexible Signature, Masking, and Extended Masking before he can even think about taking another metamagic so it'll be a while before he can Ally Conjuration. Cheap allies sustaining your spells seems like a great alternative to Quickening.

[Buster]

[FrankTrollman]

Urgh. I get so mad about that sometimes. Here's what the document said when I sent it into playtesting and editting:

[Particle_Beam]

[Da9iel]

Except that they look different on the astral. And spirits are astral beings. And the Image sent to the spirit by the magician can easily be an astral image. I'd allow it.

[Particle_Beam]

They don't look different. They only have a magical potential. You don't need astral perception to look for a reagent. What you need is the knowledge to find and then to distinguish them, made by a Intuition and Survival test. Which even a mere mundan human might have, while on the other hand a spirit doesn't, with perhaps the exception of a force 3 task spirit.

[laughingowl]

[FrankTrollman]