 Bound Spirits - what good are they?, Is Binding worth the investment? |
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 Jul 6 2007, 11:09 PM
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#51
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895  |
The true same (actually add to magic rating (so overcasting re-adjusted) or the SR4 adjusted power focus that just adds dice to any test that uses the magic rating? If actually 'adding' to magic rating, then that is very very nice. If just Force extra dice to anythign using the magic attribute that hoenstly seems a little weak to me. Considering the karma cost, I personally have no problem with a free permentant 'Aid Sorcery' for all types. Nothing says (unlikely you italicised) cumulative so this would be in place of having other spirits help (dont think you can have multiple spirits help a casting can you?). Spell Sustain is the only questionable one to me, since Force of spirit doesnt matter. though if changed so the spirit can do either one of these (but not both), then that seems a fair break for the karma cost. And one 'fluff' addition. Sustaining a spell above ones force is painful and exhuasting, spirits regularly asked to do this repeatidly will suffer aminosity towards the caster |
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Jul 6 2007, 11:15 PM
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#52
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The SR4 adjusted version.
What? +Force dice to every Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting, Dispelling, Summoning, Binding, Warding or Banishment test you make is weak? I'm at a loss to even answer that. Aid Sorcery is substantially less than that, since it's just the same list of tasks except that you can't stack it with another Bound spirit's Aid Sorcery and it doesn't add to Warding or Conjuring.
And each spirit can theoretically sustain an unlimited number of spells. It costs the spirit nothing and the magician nothing but services. As currently written, an Ally spirit represents an infinite number of Force Infinity Spell Sustaining Foci. That's what I have a problem with. Nerfing the dicepool bonus in exchange for that is not a good idea and I have consistently opposed it since it was written in. -Frank |
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Jul 6 2007, 11:26 PM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
So how upset would an Ally spirit be if:
You give it as some of its powers: Innate spell (Increase drain attribute 1) Innate Spell (increase Drain attribute 2) Innate spell (Increase Reflex) Have Ally cast those three spells on you, sustain them, then go hang out on meta-planes until for some reason you need the spells dropped/recast. Heck someplace 'safe' you could even have the ally come to help you out with traditional Aid Sorcery / Study / etc... (so he doesnt roll anything for these). Might not want to have him help you out while 'running' (or any place possibly dangerous) since that -6 die penaltiy is going to make him vunerable to attack, but seems to me that would give you an incredible boost for a force 5 or so (so increase atrtibute could be over cast to 9) ally spirit. |
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Jul 6 2007, 11:46 PM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Well Aid Sorcery help with Counterspelling (always valuable), while +dice to magic test doesnt. Hmm to say Power Foci is one my characters have always avoided (do to addiction / dependacy / and or theft potential). Personally I still think I would take the unlimited 'Aid Sorcery' (and Spell Sustaining (even if only a single spell)) Though will admit on review (and comparing it to a power foci), the ally as a 'power foci' is reasonably. Same karma cost to bound / summon (with nothing esle on ally). Ally requires Meta-magic, might fail and potential very painful drain (at high end). Power Foci, could be stolen, doesnt have the 'extra' help an Ally can do (even without extra points on powers / forms / skills / spell spent on ally). So I guess seeing the whole write-up I could go either way. Personally I don't like the as power focus since it makes them very different from other bound spirits. I prefer keeping them a 'bound spirit' plus. I think for mine I will go with the as written. With an addendum to the rules stating the Spell Sustaining is basically a spell. A spirit can not maintain multiple spells at once. While this does make regular bound spirits a little weaker, how often have you dumped multiple spells onto a spirit at the same time. (seems a real fast way to eat up services). |
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Jul 6 2007, 11:47 PM
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#55
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Well, that's illegal - no sustaining spells while vacationing on the metaplanes. What is actually legal (and for that matter good), is to cast all your buff spells on yourself, your friends, your gardener, your favorite niece, pretty much everyone you know except uncle George (because seriously fuck that guy). And after each casting you transfer it to your spirit and tell him to keep it sustained with magical services until further notice. And that notice never comes. And every couple of rounds it uses up another service for every single buff spell you cast on every single person you know. And it doesn't matter, because you never run out of services. You're going through about 115,200 services a day to keep up Increase Reflexes, Willpower, and Intuition on all your friends (assuming a Force 3 Spirit). But since you have unlimited services that doesn't matter. Then your Spirit can jolly well keep doing stuff. He hasn't suffered any drain, he isn't at any penalties. As long as he doesn't go back to the metaplanes he can do anything he'd normally do. And that's the part I find to be infuriating. -Frank |
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Jul 7 2007, 12:06 AM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Frank how is it illegal?
No using Sustain Spell magical service while on meta-plane... However it CAN use: Innate Spellcasting: Increase Reflexes (Ally actually casts spell). Sustain it indefiantly, and LOS / Distance / other planes, specifcally doesnt break you sustaining a spell. So if spirit goes back to meta-plane no reason it couldn't sutain the spell it casts. |
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Jul 7 2007, 12:08 AM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Also sticking to 'raw'. Does anything state the spirit can sustain MORE than one spell?
Doesnt say a spirit can sustain multiple spells. GM can very easily say a spirit can sustain a spell. Problem solved. |
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Jul 7 2007, 12:16 AM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Hmm: Aid Study says only a spirit can add to the roll? May be overlooking it but can't find an equivilant line for Aid Sorcery. So if you 'really' need to land that spell can you have multiple spirits provide Aid Sorcery? Even SM under Allies gives this impression?
Spefically stating it does not count against the limit of one bound spirit for aiding in the learning of a spell. nothing about adding dice to casting. Can 6 spirits all Aid Sorcery for a really insane casting dice pool (likely pretty much assured hitting the force cap) |
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Jul 7 2007, 02:42 AM
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#59
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Huh? If a reagent looks exactly the same as a "normal" object, how the heck does a gatherer know the difference between a reagent and a normal object? There's obviously some way to see the difference or no one would be able to locate or gather them. Even a mundane talislegger is able to locate and gather raw reagents, they don't even need the Enchanting skill, so it's not like they need some sort of "Mystical Enchanting Sense" to detect reagents. As long as the owner of the spirit knows what reagents looks like (i.e. has the Survival skill), the owner can pass mental images to the spirit for what to look for. A spirit is the perfect reagent locator. They can travel at astral speeds to a suitable location (which are by definition far away from civilization) and they have the powers to survive these dangerous places such as mountain tops, the walls of an active volcanic crater, and the bottom of the ocean. All you have to do is point a spirit to suitable locations and let them search those areas. A task spirit with the Survival skill could find reagents in the normal time, e.g. a natural radical reagent would take (threshold 12, 1 week) (p81). Any spirit with the Search power can find a natural radical reagent much faster (threshold 10, 10 minutes). Without the appropriate gathering skill, neither spirit could successfully harvest it: they'd have to contact you (or someone else) to extract the reagent safely. A task spirit with both a gathering skill (Geology, Botany, etc.) and the Search power can both find AND retrieve reagents for you with one service. I suppose if a task spirit had the locating skill (Survival), the owner wouldn't need the Survival skill because the spirit would know what to look for on his own. A force 6 task spirit with both Skill(Survival) and Skill(<gathering>) would be a reagent-gathering machine! |
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Jul 7 2007, 02:59 AM
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#60
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
Except look at the Search modifiers table--if you're sending them after non-living objects, it's plus five to the threshold, and there's also a +1 modifier per kilometer--if you're sending them out far enough, they're not going to be back for a looooong while.
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Jul 7 2007, 03:01 AM
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#61
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Since all spells are capped by their force, I don't think it would be unbalancing to say that you can stack all your spirits' Aid Sorcery bonuses. You would be blowing a fortune on binding materials and still only get <force> hits. |
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Jul 7 2007, 09:42 PM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
Hmmm. Maybe I was just assuming too much, but I think there's a couple of problems with ally sustaining.
First of all, I assumed that no spirit could sustain spells after it drops to 0 dice left. I don't think it's actually in RAW, but it just doesn't make a lot of sense otherwise. Second, if you assume that, you'll need a pretty beefy ally to handle all those spells. And if you summon a high-force ally, you're much better off having the ally run with you than just sit back and sustain spells (the whole "more IPs" thing that's been discussed to death). Third, does a sustained Innate Spell not cost the ally dice? It would seem to make sense that it still would, but I don't remember if RAW spells that out. Finally, slightly (even more) OT, but is there a limit to the number of allies that you can have (1/CHA/X)? BTW, I like the Power Focus thing; it's simpler and covers more ground. It does tend to make a focus very weak in comparison, but I suppose that you could still say that with RAW as it turned out. |
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Jul 7 2007, 10:42 PM
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#63
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The magical service "sustain spell" does not incur penalties for the spirit. It only uses up services.
-Frank |
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Jul 8 2007, 12:07 AM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
Wow. I guess that's what I get for assuming too much. It *does* make ally sustains awfully powerful.
Is there a limit to the number of allies that you can have, or is it just however much karma you want to spend? |
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Jul 8 2007, 01:48 AM
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#65
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
No limit.
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Jul 8 2007, 01:50 AM
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#66
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
there is no official limit. i believe it has been stated that it was never specifically intended for people to have multiple ally spirits, but that the decision was made to not disallow it since it hasn't been explicitly against the rules in the past 3 editions and they didn't want to retcon it iirc.
or something like that. in fact, i think it was frank that mentioned it... personally, i would rule that you could only benefit from one such aid sorcery service in any given dicepool though. |
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Jul 8 2007, 02:20 AM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 5-February 05 Member No.: 7,053 |
Is there anything anywhere that opposes Launghingowl's interpretation of the Spell Sustaining rules? One spell per spirit? It's never come up for us, but that seems quite reasonable and neatly solves the problem.
An ally able to sustain one spell without penalty permanently is powerful, but not ridiculous. And really, an unbound force 6 spirit of man with two innate spells every morning is better (at sustaining, at least) for a lot less cost. Except that your one unbound spirit now has -4 at all times, of course. |
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Jul 8 2007, 02:43 AM
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#68
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Laughingowl's "interpretation" is itself completely unsupported. There is no limit to spell sustaining. Sustaining a spell uses a service, and that's it. As long as you can keep spending services you can keep sustaining spells. -Frank |
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Jul 8 2007, 03:50 AM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
unless you spent that point of edge getting rid of that cap. That would make that really powerful. |
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