Ares Viper Slivergun, What Ammunition to Buy? Options

[Panda Bear]

Quick question;

The book says that the Ares Viper Slivergun fires metal slivers that act as flechette ammunition. So when I purchase ammunition, do I then just buy "regular" ammo, or do I purchase flechette rounds? Or would buying flechette rounds be useless for me?

[Eleazar]

RAW doesn't say specifically, I would think it a safe bet to go with flechette.

[lunchbox311]

[Ddays]

Yeah, I consider it a perk of the gun that it's "regular" ammo is fired as flechette ammo.

[Eleazar]

[Dancer]

It fires flechette ammo, so you buy flechette ammo. Trying to load regular ammo into it would not be a good idea.

You already get +1 damage over every other heavy pistol for no apparent reason, there's no reason to make your ammunition 1/3rd cost as well.

[lunchbox311]

[Panda Bear]

I just thought about this too;

Regular ammo is different depending on the gun, right? Regular ammo for an assault rifle isn't going to be able to be used in a light pistol for regular ammo. So really, regular ammo for a slivergun wouldn't be flechette, it would be the regular ammo for that type of gun.

And I do agree, spending 10:nuyen: per bullet for that gun would be outrageous, and buying flechette ammo for a gun that already has flechette modifiers added in would be a bit redundant. As well, it does say that it fires metal slivers that act as flechette ammunition.

Unconventional to add an answer to your own question, but I was thinking about this after reading responses.

[Panda Bear]

Oh, and the balancing factor to this would have to be the fact that you can't load any type of ammunition other than the type for the ammo for the Slivergun. I can't load any type of rounds other than the Slivergun's flechette-like ammunition.

[Dancer]

The 'less armor' thing isn't that bad, actually. 1 point of DV is worth 3 points of armor. People usually have an Impact armor at least 2 points less than their Ballistic armor, so +[2 - ((5-2)/3)] = +1 DV on average. Same average damage as explosive ammo, but much safer and more legal. The only real disadvantage of flechette ammo is the cost.

[Ddays]

And the possibility that you might start dealing stun damage.

[Dancer]

[Ddays]

Consistently dealing stun damage is one thing, but starting to fluctuate between shots is another. Course, there's also hardened armor to contend with.

[Narmio]

If you're not getting paid enough to cover your ammo costs, you're more a thug than a shadowrunner, really.

While I'm not a fan of the weirdness that is the Slivergun (maybe just bad SR3 memories, I guess), loading flechette ammo into a sidearm is good fun. Especially if you have the skills to bypass someone's armour and still land a hit.

[odinson]

That just prompted a thought, wouldn't the called shot using flechette brutal as it says that the attacker gets a negative dice pool equal to the armour not modified armour of the target.

And You would buy the flechette ammo for the slivergun. Regular ammo is the same for all heavy pistols so it is completely interchangeable between a slivergun and any other pistol so it cannot be flechette rounds. On a side note, is there any rule that says you cannot load regular ammo into a slivergun? You would have to switch the damage and ap to account for the loss of the flechette ammo, but isn't it doable?

Also, I can't recall but after they errataed the flechette ammo did it change the AP of any of the guns loaded with flechette rounds in their stats? So the ap of the slivergun is actually +3 higher than what a first printing book would be?

[Panda Bear]

What errata to flechette ammo? I checked the errata and found no such change. Could you tell me where to find it?

[odinson]

[Synner667]

Hi,

I'm pretty certain that Regular ammo refers to what most people think of as bullets - jacketed bullets with a central core [or just the bullet, for caseless].

A Slivergun can't use Regular ammo - it must use Fletchettes.

The whole thing about being able to swap ammo between guns of the same class is bypassed because Fletchette ammo is not compatible with Regular ammo.

I would imagine that loading a Slivergun with Regular ammo would ruin the Slivergun..
..Same as loading Fletchette ammo into a Predator would ruin the Predator.

In the case of Shotguns, the ammo is packaged differently, which is why you can swap between Regular [solid ammo] and Fletchettes [buckshot, which on its own comes in different sizes].


Trying to load Regular ammo into Sliverguns because you want to pay 2¥/bullet rather than 10¥/bullet is just funny/crazy.

It's like trying to NarcoJet ammo into a Predator because you want to only hurt your opponents, not kill them - it wouldn't work, because the ammo isn't compatible.

The phrase Heavy Pistol is about size, no about compatibility..
..Or are people under the impression they can share ammo between Tasers and Light Pistols just because they're about the same size ??


Just my thruppence..

[Narmio]

When it says "that count as Flechette ammunition", without specifying in what *way* they count as flechette ammunition, I think it's safe to assume that they count 100%. Price, availability, everything.

It's maybe not supported by the strictest interpretation of the RAW, but I would say that those flechettes are not interchangeable with any other heavy pistol flechette ammunition. They are, however, flechettes in every other way.

[Narmio]

[odinson]

[Eleazar]

I think the reason a light pistol can't fire heavy pistol rounds is because most light pistols are going to be 9mm and heavy pistols will be .357-.5 caliber. In other words, I believe the reason why the rules say it must be in the same class is due to the size of the bullet and not the gun. Does that mean SMGs chambered for pistol rounds can shoot them? No, SR4 rules are also about ease of use and allowing a player with limited knowledge about firearms to be able to enjoy the game. It is much easier to say everything is limited by gun class than to have complex rules expressing the intricacies of firearms and the proper rounds for each gun. Though, they could also just have had a chart of what rounds each firearm can use. That would have been simple, but not simpler than the gun class rules.


EDIT: Correction to some of the posts above. Sliverguns fire slivers that act like flechette, not flechette. Although I already know everyone is familiar with this here, the distinction is important and needs to be made clear. I think whether to charge the regular ammo price or the flechette price is completely and solely up to the GM and how his players play. The rules really do not clearly state either way and both sides are correct according to RAW. However, I am of the opinion that charging that much nuyen for rounds in a gun, of which it is the only type it can fire, is an outrage. With other guns it is ok to have specialized rounds that cost more because you have to CHOICE to choose what rounds you use. Mostly you are going to be walking around with regular ammo until you need that flechette or APDS. This helps mitigate the cost and ensures you aren't throwing nuyen down the tube by shooting grunts with costly ammo.

With the slivergun you have no such option. You must always fire slivers. Now if you allow it to fire regular ammo, everyone will get this gun. It has the best damage code and a silencer which isn't forbidden. I believe the whole reason why it is able to be forbidden is because it fires non-lethal ammo only. If you allow it to fire all ammo and have a silencer then you should make it forbidden. That is just how the mechanics work.

[redne]

They have gone a long way in industry standards in 63 years... :D

I think the whole phrase "For simplicity" etc. should be taken with a grain of salt. It would mean that Colt America L36 and Yamaha Sakura Fubuki would have interchangeable ammo. Now, I'm not saying that I consider the "Firearms" section any way realistic in the first place, but this would be going too far for me. After all, the only ballpark these guns share is the size of the round. Otherwise they are different beasts altogether.

So, while not strictly RAW, I would rule for flechettes in flechette-firing weapons and non-interchangeable ammo for the stranger firearms out there. Not really a fan of "for simplicity", me :)

For shotguns I have houseruled earlier a shot ammo with all the negative effects of flechette ammunition (weaker AP), spread and the price of regular ammo. So when purchasing regular ammo, you would have the option of shot or slug shells. Or you could buy flechettes instead following the normal rules. This was in 3rd ed but I see nor reason it wouldn't work in 4th edition as well.

[redne]

[Dancer]

Silencing a slivergun shouldn't really work. If you've got tiny slivers of metal and they're travelling at subsonic speeds they're not going to hurt much. Small projectiles need to be high velocity.

It's not as stupid as the Smartgun X though, which has both a suppresor and a gas vent.