 He said - She said, Why should anyone listen to you? |
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 Jul 9 2007, 07:50 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 116 Joined: 5-May 02 From: Sydney Sprawl Member No.: 2,687  |
Well, the RAW says to ignore the RAW if the RAW gets in the way or fun. Kinda paradoxical. -Strobe |
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Jul 9 2007, 08:01 AM
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#27
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Well although I'm feeling too lazy to double check before bed, I seem to recall a second axis of debate that disagreed over whether or not it was fair to punish a player for not knowing as much about the setting as the DM reguardless of RAW.
However, it may just be my aging memory playing tricks on me again. :cyber: |
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Jul 9 2007, 08:14 AM
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#28
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
True, Ravor ... although the concept of "punishing" can only arise where GM judgement overrules strict numerical RAW. Where the GM subordinates personal judgement to the numerical RAW in all things, the concept of punishment cannot exist, since the only arbiter is the numerical RAW.
Rules don't punish. Only people do. |
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Jul 9 2007, 02:32 PM
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#29
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,917 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
Ok first this thread may be a hair silly, and it's good to have a reference as to what this might be talking about, but don't make this that other argument all over again. That thing went for a ridiculous length.
Anyway for things like that the key thing to remember, at the end of the day, is that there isn't one "winning" forumla. In fact what works for one group may not work for another. However stuff like that can still be useful because it can clue you in to benifits and potential pitfalls before you get to them. |
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Jul 9 2007, 03:17 PM
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#30
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Well I'd disagree with that statement because by itself RAW doesn't do anything, it just sits there in a book, for instince in the Technomancer example even if the DM had called for whatever rolls was decided would detremine whether or not the Techno would remain on his feet or not it would still be an example of a DM punishing a player, just like if the DM called for a Perception Test at -2 everytime a character crossed the street without declaring that they looked both ways beforehand or used RAW to decide how long the characters could go before declaring that they had taken a breath.
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Jul 9 2007, 03:28 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047 |
Whether something is good advise is usually situational and therefore requires personal interpretation.
Sadly that in this format every post must be weighed on merit on each individual's personal scales. The manner of the post obviously flavours the easy of this judgement. We have all seen abrasive and aggressive posts turn free wheeling debate into flame wars. When something becomes an argument for me is when neither side is open to changing their point of view. On the plus side Dumpshock is much better than it used to be for the baseline polite respect afforded to each user. Why should you listen? Personal choice and the possibility of help/a useful idea. Why you need to weigh everything? Because it might not work for you. |
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Jul 9 2007, 04:16 PM
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#32
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 23-June 07 Member No.: 11,998 |
:( Now that you've horribly offended me, even though you used an emoticon, I must fly off the handle, attacking your percieved authority so my own remains unblemished. I'm going to do this in an irrational, looping way that has no bearing on the conversation at hand, hoping to distract you with a flame war to keep the conversation firmly away from my poorly-made point. clears throat Your momma. |
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Jul 9 2007, 04:27 PM
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#33
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MechRigger Delux Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,151 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Hanger 18, WPAFB Member No.: 1,657 |
Being as I've found this discussion to have nothing to do with SR4 and more to do with personal rantings for now, I'll just move it to General gaming. And even though you are all playing nice so far, please make sure this doesn't get out of hand.
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 Jul 9 2007, 04:30 PM
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#34
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Of course - you paid for it. To get the value of the rule in question, you just have to compare it's lettercount to total lettercount of the book and put what you paid for the RAW into that relation. :wobble: So, the more RAW you can quote, the more worth is your opinion - and thus, the righter you are. :facelick: |
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Jul 9 2007, 05:52 PM
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#35
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Though apparently the RAW doesn't have inherent value enough for discussion of its value and appropriate role to be considered SR4-related ;)
Edit: Pendaric, thank you for reiterating the importance of mutual respect. It's what has allowed us to discuss this topic at all -- even if our esteemed moderator seems to have missed its existence in this thread entirely. |
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Jul 9 2007, 11:39 PM
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#36
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Stricter moderating, pre-emotive thread closings and bans take their toll. |
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Jul 10 2007, 02:33 AM
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#37
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
If by "better" you mean "more obnoxiously moderated". Enforced politeness is no kind of politeness at all. ~J |
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Jul 10 2007, 04:25 AM
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#38
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Did anyone else notice a real rant in this thread? I don't mean just agendas or strong povs: those run rampant in most SR4 threads anyway ;)
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Jul 10 2007, 04:41 AM
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#39
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I can add one if you guys want.
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Jul 10 2007, 04:54 AM
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#40
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Ah, but that would scarcely work, Critias. The difference between unacceptable rant and acceptable agenda may be whether or not those in power agree with you: and we've established that your opinions are popular.
In fairness to Pendaric, he did post before moderation intervention interrupted the pre-existing level of spirited but non-vicious discussion in this thread. ... and after active intervention: what has become of it? |
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Jul 11 2007, 05:48 AM
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#41
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 23-June 07 Member No.: 11,998 |
I'm sorry if my attempt at humor in any way caused this to be moderated or moved, I was just poking fun at "t3h internets" in general, not at any specific poster.
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Jul 11 2007, 05:55 AM
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#42
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I'm sure my warning level can explain that my opinions aren't always popular. They might be amusing and fun to read, but (especially to "those in power") they're hardly always popular. But, ah well. I just figured I'd offer, since a rant-less thread is like peanut butter without jelly or a basket full of kittens without fire. |
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Jul 11 2007, 06:13 AM
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#43
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
*blink*
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Jul 11 2007, 06:18 AM
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#44
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I know. Thinking about a basket full of kittens without fire makes me tear up a little, too. *sigh*
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Jul 11 2007, 04:14 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 289 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,625 |
I dunno, I remember long ago there was a time when the politeness and political correctness and the general attitude that dumpshock was above all that petty falaming and trolling stuff, was so pervasive it was actually annoying. There were exceptions ofcourse, I seem to recall the name Dr. Funkenstien, but there was at one point a thread where someone began talking about how, as their character fell in love with another character he was developing feeling for the player and though he'd never considered himsef gay etc, etc. Basically alot of drivel, but there were pages and pages of support and advice before someone finally posted that the guy was a freak, loser, or possibly both and should get some damn help and off the f**king forums with that crap, and that everyone else was equally messed up for not telling him the same thing. I stopped visiting DSF for a time when I realised I found myself agreeing with the 'obnoxious' individual whom I'd so often found irritating in the past. There is such a thing as too polite and it was truly an odd time. |
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Jul 11 2007, 06:42 PM
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#46
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Got a link? That might've been me. It all sounds fuzzily familiar.
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Jul 11 2007, 07:23 PM
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#47
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
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Jul 12 2007, 03:34 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 197 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,542 |
Swwweeeet! I bow before you good sir. :notworthy: |
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Jul 12 2007, 03:49 AM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 197 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,542 |
Man I don't know if anyone should scan what I'm typing. Sure I can list my gaming resume. The longest SR game I played for five years in real time and we had our characters played from 2048 in gametime to 2061. Each got over 1000 karma or there abouts.
Does that mean I know what I'm talking about? Nope. I don't even know what RAW or IIRC stands for. Everytime I see it on the boards I'm too embarassed to ask. I try to post on topics that interest me because I want to talk about SR because I don't play it much anymore, and I hope that I can make someone else's game enjoyable. I've asked questions on here in the past and people have offered great and not so great advice. Hell sometimes I think I come across as a HUGE d**k when I don't mean to be. Other times I find myself writing posts but deleting them thinking "Dude it's not personal. You probably didn't communicate your idea effectively." or "He's a f**ker and do you really want to get into this?" As far as being in a gaming group it's like anything else. You gotta find who you can deal with. One my favorite DMs I played with for about ten years he and I used to fight all the time. He even threw a boxed set at me once. <It was the Tales of the Lance boxset I think.> He was a great AD&D DM, but he sucked at SR, mainly because he wanted to play it like AD&D. One of my good friends was one of the best and worst players depending on which night we played. If he was in a good mood everything rocked. If he was in a bad mood, like he fought with his Ex, then he would go out of his way to cause chaos. (In fact I think he had a character named Chaos in SR. Yeah he was a decker, and a f**ker.) He used to give me fits as GM and as a player. I would go almost insane and he would smile. Good Times. :) |
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Jul 12 2007, 04:00 AM
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#50
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
How do you manage to move so fast? We've been playing three years, and our characters played from mid-June 2055 to late August 2055.
RAW is an abomination. You should not bother to learn what it means. ~J |
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