 "everyone is beautiful...", Well, why wouldn't they? |
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 Jul 8 2007, 03:31 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737  |
But in a world where bio-sculpting, cosmetic modification and minor cybernetic implantation is as easy as going down to the mall, where there are chains of body-mod clinics, and where the media constantly bombards people with standards of beauty... why wouldn't the majority of people have damn good looks? |
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Jul 8 2007, 03:35 PM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
With the ease of obtaining toothpaste, toothbrushes, dental floss, and other oral hygiene products in the modern age why doesn't everyone have good teeth?
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Jul 8 2007, 03:45 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 30-May 07 Member No.: 11,787 |
That was possibly the most clever pointing out of the obvious I've encountered on a forum, bravo to you! On the subject though, I have dealt with many players who have gone out of their way to explain that their characters are el chupacabras hunchbacked deformed cousin, and not a movie star. Also have you seen the pictures officially published for this game? Especially the ones in the core books, none of the people in there exactly remind me of pure beauty here, though I assume standards of beauty in the shadowrun world are way off from todays. I mean when you factor in orcs, trolls and elves every scale in the world just kind of gives up. |
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Jul 8 2007, 03:45 PM
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#4
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Sure, but I'd say that the majority of people have far better teeth then people did in the past so I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that the majority of people in the Sixth World are better looking then people are today.
Of course, it's a generic vaguely corp kind of beauty since only the rich can afford custom designers. :cyber: |
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Jul 8 2007, 03:56 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
Basically what Ravor said--while not everyone has perfect teeth these days, they're a hell of a lot better than they were a century ago (my dad's a dentist; I've seen pictures) with such things as toothpaste, toothbrushes, and even fluoridation of the water.
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Jul 8 2007, 04:06 PM
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#6
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
This reminds me of the many instances in the novels where the author is describing someone's beauty and feels the need to add that it is natural.
I think over time people are getting better looking. Pretty people mate more, while the hideous ones live alone in caves - or their parents basement. Is 50 or 60 years enough for everyone to be beautiful? Nope, but maybe the pretty-challenged got killed off every time there was a riot or epidemic or other catastrophe. Why? Becuse so and so always hated that ugly fragger, or someone else decided she was too pretty to not get medical treatment. Think this is too eccentric? Studies have already been done where pretty people get more good stuff - like better jobs, more promotions, more likely to get others to do something for them, even better seats in diners. |
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Jul 8 2007, 04:18 PM
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#7
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
For the wealthy corporate middle-class, all those wageslaves, yes, I'm certain they would all be into small plastic surgery. Most of the girls would get boob jobs in high school, for sure. And with the harsh pollution in the 6th world, surgery/high end cosmetics would be crucial for a healthy skin tone.
However, all the non corporate citizens - the shop owners, employees of non-aligned SMBs, etc, and tjhe SINless masses, wouldn't be able to afford surgery so much. So that'd definatly be something to further seperate the classes apart. The corporate drones, though mindless, can afford cosmetics and surgery that make them look like angels compared to the wretched masses. The poorer have more freedom of mind (though most wouldn't realize it), but the wageslaves have much more disposable income to blow on mind-numbing entertainement and ephemeral things, such as physical beauty products. |
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Jul 8 2007, 04:27 PM
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#8
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
This actually reminds me of stories about the Therans from Earthdawn, how they were all supposed to be pretanaturally beautiful. It's something that could be fun ot use in a game. A lot of wage slaves have had cosmetic surgery to "clean up their look". So corpers are going to have a more sculpted look, and because of it, stand out on the street a bit more. Especially out side of places like Downtown Seattle. Where as persons from the Barrens are oging to have the gamut of sores, cuts, leathered skin, and , dare I say it , bad teeth . Because they have more important things to worry about tahn flossing. Maybe one more thing to add to the class barriers. Not saying this is the way it is, just something I think would be fun to work in to my games.
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Jul 8 2007, 04:33 PM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
As logical as that sounds, there's a lot of things working against that Tisoz. As much as people hate to admit it, we aren't that much bigger, stronger and more attractive than our ancestors- certainly not enough to dispel the distinct possibility that most of the improvement is because we simply have better nutrition and are better cared for today in general. There's also studies out there that indicate fittest individuals sometimes have less attractive/fit offspring, because many "good" traits are actually maladaptive when taken out of context. For example, the competitiveness, chiseled jawline and broad shoulders of the local studmuffin ubermensch may not exactly be the best traits for his daughter to inherit. This is offset a bit by the fact that the fittest individual of one gender should theoretically pair up with fittest example of the other gender, but things don't always work out that way, even among animals.
And of course, you have to consider humanity's everchanging beauty and cultural standards. Never forget that not too long ago Burt Reynolds and that mustache of his was a big time gold standard of masculinity. Now we got Johnny Depp on all the magazine covers. You figure it out. |
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Jul 8 2007, 05:12 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 188 Joined: 26-August 05 Member No.: 7,622 |
Come out west. In Phoenix, I can go to a mall and get assessed for plastic surgery. I can get my teeth cleaned at the same place I get my hair cut. Did I mention we have mobile teeth whitening services out here to? I think it depends on the geographic area. I think the fear of folks messing you up would keep the population less than perfect looking. tweak |
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Jul 8 2007, 05:17 PM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 20-June 07 Member No.: 11,956 |
I would argue that even in our world, now, people are becoming more 'beautiful'-to an extent. If you take hollywood, or beverley hills, there is a proliferation of surgecally enhanced 'beauty' amongst the upper, and even the middle classes. However, as has been said before, the poor will always have more important things to do-like eat. In a world like SR when the divide is more prominent-the Very rich and the Very poor-this will be taken to extremes...
I would argue that in ShadowRun, this cosmetic-society would probably have rolled out into every major wealth centre- as it is a world of truly global media thanks to muti-national megacorps. However, as was pointed out, beauty varies with the time. Centuys ago being overweight-even obese-was conisdered to be good looking as it showed you had enough money to eat well. Then slimness becoame the fad, and now there is a growing backlash against size 0 and 00 models as unreasonable, unhealthy- and more and more fashion editors are seking to suport this. People tend to aspire to the people in the limelight-it was the Aristoctracy, now the Clebrety-so its up to your GMs what it Beautiful in your world...but in all probibility it will be the look of the high-ups in the megacorps, or even set deliberately by media giants like Horizon. In the sixth world, however, some clues are provided. It is stated that over 50% of joytoys are elves-which suggests beauty has continued along the slim, delicate line. All the books also comment on how even lowly prostitues can afford bodysculpting-sometimes to frightening extent. Thus people, even the poor and forgotten, have much more choice in apperence, and the 'elf poser' and 'ork poser' traits show 'beautiful' runes the whole gamut. Whtever beauty is, the chances are the number of odd, different, or just sheer freakish people will be far greater then in our world as people choose their own look... Not sure if this advances the point-I kinda feel like i just rambled on a bit-ah well...just my two pennys worth. |
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Jul 8 2007, 10:35 PM
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#12
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
[General Jack D. Ripper] Mandrake, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream. [Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake] Lord, Jack. [General Jack D. Ripper] You know when fluoridation first began? [Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake] I... no, no. I don't, Jack. [General Jack D. Ripper] Nineteen hundred and forty-six. Nineteen forty-six, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works. 8) |
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Jul 8 2007, 10:38 PM
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#13
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Peter Sellers+Kubrick > all.
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Jul 8 2007, 11:02 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 946 Joined: 16-September 05 From: London Member No.: 7,753 |
Thank you for using my comment - I am much pleased :) Body Sculpting is something that gets mentioned often in Cyber books [CP 2020 is a good source, as is the Hard Wired supplement].. ..Which infers that it's cheap for modding, and something that wealthy people do on a regular basis - to keep up with fashion, just as body maintenance, etc. In fact, CP 2020 has a very different idea about Cyber.. ..In CP 2020, cyberware is much more common, cheaper, easier to install [wired reflexes in CP costs 1,600 ED$, common DataJack costs 200ED$].. ..Wheras in SR, cyberware is much more expensive and much less common [wired reflex costs 11,000-100,000¥, common DataJack costs 500¥] |
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Jul 9 2007, 12:01 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
I seem to recall something where the more successful people are the less kids they have on average. People who are professionals and educated were having less kids on average than all the uneducated slobs out there. So by the logic that pretty people get better jobs and are more successful and the more successful people have less kids then wouldn't the world be getting uglier as time goes on? From my higschool all the people who have gone to uni and gotten degrees maybe one or two of them has a kid. All the ones who didn't even hit college and just hooked with someone all have 2 or 3 kids. And from the people who didn't go to uni compared to the ones that did the ones that went were the better looking. |
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Jul 9 2007, 12:22 AM
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#16
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Which would all be nice and relevant if it weren't for the fact that evolution doesn't select against ugly people in particular. It simply "selects" from whoever is left standing the longest as we all pass through the meatgrinder known as life. The rest is all details.
Remember, "successful" and "attractive" are all relative terms here. After all, from a Darwinian standpoint, the fittest human is probably some rich horn dog male with latex allergies who enjoys drinking too much and banging gold diggers. |
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Jul 9 2007, 12:41 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 13-July 06 From: Long Beach Sacrifice Zone Member No.: 8,885 |
It has to do with education. In general, the more education a person has, the better they are at determining what the costs are for having a child (and additional children). So someone with a good job and decent education typically won't have more kids than they can feasibly support physically, financially, and emotionally. On the flip side, the people who have less education and uncertain prospects tend to have more children. Not because they don't understand the costs, per se, but because hopefully a few of their offspring will survive and grow up to be successful and be able to support their parents in their old age. Look at the rural farming communities, children provide labor as they become old enough to contribute. Now, in Shadowrun, it's easy to see that orks and trolls, being typically disadvantaged when it comes to opportunities for education and decent levels of earnings job-wise, would then tend to have more children. Mid level orks, trolls, dwarves, humans, and elves would have the typical 2-3 offspring, and the higher levels of education and income might only have 1-2 children. At the lowest rung of the economic ladder, all races could try to produce large families, since a lack of education, proper nutrition, and hygiene would mean a higher mortality rate of children. Whether or not the traditional (and suspect) ork birth rate of 4+ means every year a female ork does produce 4+ offspring and that they all survive is a matter of environment. The current graph of total fertility rate vs GDP (2004) shows that in countries with less than $5000 in income (per person), the typical HUMAN woman can have from one to eight children. Double that income, and the amount of children more than halves to one to three children per female. In someplace like Seattle, where you have areas of total economic flux (ultra rich areas versus ultra poor) you would have vastly varying birth rates, but the balance would be that the better-off people would have fewer children, but those would typically survive. The poorer residents would have more children, but lose more of them due to disease, starvation, accident, etc. Cosmetic modification does run from about 200-10,000 :nuyen:, so we could make a reasonable assumption that people on average don't have visible disfigurements even if they are a 'low income' lifestyle. But there is a difference between the 'normal' appearance of a wageslave and the cosmetic modifications that (depending on GM) are in style. The text mentions the popularity of fiberoptic color-changing hair, which is probably the realm of the high class lifestyle individuals. So yes, the ultra-poor are probably unmodified and varying in appearance. But once you reach a level above starvation wages, you probably could afford to remove the small flaws that might hold you back. The ultra-rich have all the options, but that's hardly a surprise to anyone. |
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Jul 9 2007, 12:53 AM
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#18
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Ok, I'll admit my point may be erroneous. But I was also thinking of how the better looking people get hit on all the time. They tend to be choosier in accepting suitors. My rational for this statement? Comments like she is out of your league, and ... I thought I remembered another, but it slipped my memory. SR3 even had an edge for it - Good Looking and Knows It.
Not neccessasarily. You could have 2 burger flippers of equal skill, but the better looking one gets the promotion to Assistant Shift Manager. I wasn't claiming advancement all the way to the top of the job market, but within certain strata. Take 2 people of similar ability and the prettier one is more likely to get the perks. SR3 even had an edge for it - Good Looking and Knows It. Where my logic may have been flawed is in people having the same attitude toward mating partners. Doesn't everyone like eye candy? If not, why are there not an abundance of ugly people in the media? I know I have asked out a lot more girls I considered above my level looks wise than either on my level or below. (So I'm helping keep the world uglier. ;)) [ Spoiler ]
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Jul 9 2007, 02:56 AM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
For shadowrunners, it's important to know that having good looks will actually keep you out of jail.
Here's a great article that lists the recent research on judges and juries: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6478659.stm Here's another article that lists other benefits of good looks: http://jurylaw.typepad.com/deliberations/2...s_and_beau.html |
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Jul 9 2007, 03:31 AM
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#20
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Well the problem is that Shadowrunners would have to find their way into court first. :cyber:
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Jul 9 2007, 03:34 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
That is, if you manage to be get caught alive at all, and not simply turned into a pile of unidentifiable goo after the guard spirits and drones come after you, while the guards just open fire upon you legally on their ground because of their extraterritoriality status. And if you don't have a SIN, you don't exist, because the government doesn't even know you, which means that there is no right that the police could violate. Being a terrorist for hire with no system identification number doesn't make your life easy in 2070+. |
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