IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

10 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Edge, SR4 luck v. SR3 experience
Talia Invierno
post Jul 10 2007, 05:55 AM
Post #1


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,677
Joined: 5-June 03
Member No.: 4,689



Edge has a very similar function to the old Karma Pool -- but with the major distinction that it can be maxed right out of the gate. Even the quality Lucky makes it absolutely clear that any association with earned karma (experience) is sidewise rather than automatic.

Before, all other things being equal, metahumans would always be behind humans in karma pool: but a dedicated metahuman could always work their way into equivalency with anyone less dedicated. Now -- not a chance. Humans have the bonus at chargen, and in Edge the difference between 8 and 7 is a significant one: the more so in the memorable battles where the PCs escape only just by the skin of their teeth. After adding in the extra bp cost to play a metahuman, the average chargen metahuman is considerably less likely to have Edge even within 2 of a human's.

For the Awakened or technomancers, the situation gets more extreme. Having to devote yet more bp to Magic or Resonance leaves even fewer for Edge. In effect, having access to magical or resonance powers makes you less lucky.

My first reaction to encountering this was to see the similarities to the old karma pool and accept it within that context. However, having played within it now: I find I care for it less and less. Why has that extra "something" which separated out the adequate from the truly great been reduced only to luck? and luck, which is more, which can be achieved right out of chargen? Here, I think, the attempt to conflate multiple dice pools, each with clear and separate functions, some derived but at least one earned, into a single attribute: which would most accurately be called not Edge, not Karma, but Luck, pure and simple.

I'll admit to being a bit surprised to find the only topic dealing with this in the detail I was looking for actually predated the SR4 release.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Strobe
post Jul 10 2007, 06:11 AM
Post #2


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 116
Joined: 5-May 02
From: Sydney Sprawl
Member No.: 2,687



I'm considering a house rule to limit edge somehow. Possibly the only roll how many points you have left rather than all your edge one. Possibly edge can't be high at chargen, you have to earn it with something in game (karma + good reason spring to mind).

I guess it is just a personal preference that I don't like "luck" being a stat in a game. Isn't that what the dice are for? I mean it is luck that you don't glitch all the time or that you pull off that one-in-a-million shot.

That just made me think maybe I'll limit edge to certain things like the long shot rule only or something to devalue it a bit.

-Strobe

Please note: I haven't thought any of this through, I'm just typing straight out of my brain here.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cain
post Jul 10 2007, 06:13 AM
Post #3


Grand Master of Run-Fu
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,840
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Tir Tairngire
Member No.: 178



I happen to agree with you, Talia. Sure, in SR3, eventually PC's would reach the point where their luck would break the game. However, in SR4, that point can come straight out of the gate. You could control the rate of Karma pool acquisition by using the staggered-rate method, by encouraging more and more situations where they's burn Karma Pool, and so on and so forth.

Having played Mr. Lucky, I can tell you that all attempts to rein him in have failed. He doesn't depend on his luck, it's his ace-in-the-hole. I can also design Mr. Lucky the mage, Mr. Lucky the otaku (although that's very difficult to make effective), Mr Lucky the Decker, etc, etc. In all cases, he breaks the game simply by existing.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Jul 10 2007, 06:27 AM
Post #4


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



I wouldn't mind seeing what you would come up with for Mr. Lucky the Mage.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bibliophile20
post Jul 10 2007, 06:50 AM
Post #5


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,180
Joined: 22-January 07
From: Rochester, NY
Member No.: 10,737



Don't forget that Lucky can also be used by NPCs; I created one a short while back, an ork with the Lucky quality, who's a thrillseeker and adrenaline junkie; his current hobby? Juggling chainsaws.

And there's an easy way to curtail Mr. Lucky if he starts depending on his edge too much--the gods, powers-that-be, whatever, take offense and curse him to balance the scales, giving him the bad luck flaw.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Crusher Bob
post Jul 10 2007, 07:01 AM
Post #6


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,598
Joined: 15-March 03
From: Hong Kong
Member No.: 4,253



One of the problems is that the power of edge increases with the square of your edge score, while the power of your karma pool suffers from diminishing returns.

Having a karma pool of, say, 30 means that you can do one or two impossible things (by re-rolling 4+ times) or have smooth sailing throughout a much less stressful adventure (by re-rolling almost everything once to bump up your sucesses). This led to a much more James Bond effect, where high karma characters tended to not get their clothes messed up too much. After all, spending 1 karma out of 30 to bump up your dodge so that those brains don't get splattered all over your tux is probably worth it.

On the other hand, Mr Lucky can do the impossible 8 times, but can't do the 'smooth sailing' effect because he doesn't have enough edge to spend it on something trivial.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Critias
post Jul 10 2007, 07:02 AM
Post #7


Freelance Elf
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 7,324
Joined: 30-September 04
From: Texas
Member No.: 6,714



QUOTE (bibliophile20)
And there's an easy way to curtail Mr. Lucky if he starts depending on his edge too much--the gods, powers-that-be, whatever, take offense and curse him to balance the scales, giving him the bad luck flaw.

Do you often hand out 20 point negative qualities to PCs, out of the blue?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Talia Invierno
post Jul 10 2007, 07:42 AM
Post #8


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,677
Joined: 5-June 03
Member No.: 4,689



Don't we already have enough GM power threads? Let's not turn this into another one :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
odinson
post Jul 10 2007, 07:48 AM
Post #9


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 410
Joined: 5-April 07
From: Vancouver, BC
Member No.: 11,383



The easiest way is to not refresh edge often. Maybe once every few games. Or after a campaign arc.

A character who has earned a bunch of karma will be better than someone else because they will have better stats. Thats is what separates beginners from experts. Unless all your players are ultra munchkin and max out at one thing in char creation so that they can't possibly raise their attribute or skill in their specific field, there is always room to grow.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Glyph
post Jul 10 2007, 07:50 AM
Post #10


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,115
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,449



Edge suffers from the same fundamental flaw that a lot of other things in SR4 do - you can get too close to the hard cap at char-gen. But I don't think Edge is game-breaking, and if it turns out to be, there are plenty of tweaks in the book if a GM needs to tone it down. But capricious GM fiat is not a good way to deal with any game balance problem - I agree with Critias on that one.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Talia Invierno
post Jul 10 2007, 07:57 AM
Post #11


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,677
Joined: 5-June 03
Member No.: 4,689



QUOTE (odinson)
Unless all your players are ultra munchkin and max out at one thing in char creation so that they can't possibly raise their attribute or skill in their specific field, there is always room to grow.

You mean -- the way just about every chargen build on these boards recommends?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
odinson
post Jul 10 2007, 08:05 AM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 410
Joined: 5-April 07
From: Vancouver, BC
Member No.: 11,383



QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
QUOTE (odinson)
Unless all your players are ultra munchkin and max out at one thing in char creation so that they can't possibly raise their attribute or skill in their specific field, there is always room to grow.

You mean -- the way just about every chargen build on these boards recommends?

Yeah, exactly. One of my friends is going to try her hand at gming and all of us players got together and in character design, made sure none of us were 'optimized' as all the builds here are. None of the humans have edge of 8, nobody has dice pools in the high teens, half the combat guys only have 1 IP. The highest dice pool is the spirit killer dwarf, with his weapon focus in the meat world he's got 15 dice.

Everyone is really excited, yeah we wasted bp buying attributes at 2 or 3, and most people don't even have 1 skill at 5. The highest edge is 3, so the human is still under half of what he can get to.

Maybe the problem isn't the edge attribute. Maybe the problem is people making munchkin characters and abusing the edge attribute. Just a though. :P
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Glyph
post Jul 10 2007, 08:11 AM
Post #13


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,115
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,449



So by munchkin, you mean "not puposely gimped"? :P
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ravor
post Jul 10 2007, 08:35 AM
Post #14


Cybernetic Blood Mage
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,472
Joined: 11-March 06
From: Northeastern Wyoming
Member No.: 8,361



Nah, as long as the DM remembers that your average Sec Guard, wageMage, ect only has a natural Dicepool of ~6-8 then the PCs don't need to be rolling bucketloads of Dice either in order to thrive.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
toturi
post Jul 10 2007, 10:22 AM
Post #15


Canon Companion
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 8,018
Joined: 2-March 03
From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG
Member No.: 4,187



So when your PC does not have more dice than your average NPCs, that is called thriving? 50/50 odds multiple times are not good odds.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
odinson
post Jul 10 2007, 10:33 AM
Post #16


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 410
Joined: 5-April 07
From: Vancouver, BC
Member No.: 11,383



yeah. But if you're stupid enough to need to go toe to toe with sec guards multiple times in one night then you really shouldn't be surviving.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
toturi
post Jul 10 2007, 10:40 AM
Post #17


Canon Companion
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 8,018
Joined: 2-March 03
From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG
Member No.: 4,187



QUOTE (odinson)
yeah. But if you're stupid enough to need to go toe to toe with sec guards multiple times in one night then you really shouldn't be surviving.

You are right - unfortunately, like you said, sec guards. Even if you face 2 sec guards 1 time, and you have a 50/50 chance of surviving 1 sec guard, what are your odds? The odds are even worse when you face sec guards multiple times. You like less than 1 in 4 times of succeeding your run?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
raphabonelli
post Jul 10 2007, 11:04 AM
Post #18


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 90
Joined: 25-May 07
From: Florianópolis, Brasil
Member No.: 11,747



One thing i've changed for sure on Edge rules (after talking in another thread about "Lucky Guy"). No more better then anyone long shot tryes. Any penalties are applied to the roll "AFTER" adding the Edge on it... but (to make things remotely possible) any EDGE roll ir made with minimun of 1 dice... rule of six active.

So... if someone have AGI 5 and FIREARMS 4 and is trying a shot with a -25 penalty, he adds his EDGE to the roll (Edge 8, for instance) to a dice pool of 17. With the penalties his dice pool becomes -8. Since he used Edge, he still rolls 1 dice, with the rule of six. Still exists a chance of sucess, and there is a fair chance of a Critical Glich (the more you push your luck, more chance of a great acident).

At least for me this rule won't inutilize Edge, but put a reign on it in many cases.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bibliophile20
post Jul 10 2007, 11:06 AM
Post #19


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,180
Joined: 22-January 07
From: Rochester, NY
Member No.: 10,737



QUOTE (Critias)
QUOTE (bibliophile20 @ Jul 10 2007, 01:50 AM)
And there's an easy way to curtail Mr. Lucky if he starts depending on his edge too much--the gods, powers-that-be, whatever, take offense and curse him to balance the scales, giving him the bad luck flaw.

Do you often hand out 20 point negative qualities to PCs, out of the blue?

Nope, I don't. And I would only, only, only pull such a stunt if the character was really abusing the stat, and only after a possible in-game reason--glitching or critical glitching repeatedly in a short period of time on tests made with edge, for example (which, if he was abusing it, would be bound to happen sooner or later). Basically, I would treat it like acquiring a geas during gameplay.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Critias
post Jul 10 2007, 11:09 AM
Post #20


Freelance Elf
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 7,324
Joined: 30-September 04
From: Texas
Member No.: 6,714



QUOTE (bibliophile20)
QUOTE (Critias @ Jul 10 2007, 03:02 AM)
QUOTE (bibliophile20 @ Jul 10 2007, 01:50 AM)
And there's an easy way to curtail Mr. Lucky if he starts depending on his edge too much--the gods, powers-that-be, whatever, take offense and curse him to balance the scales, giving him the bad luck flaw.

Do you often hand out 20 point negative qualities to PCs, out of the blue?

Nope, I don't. And I would only, only, only pull such a stunt if the character was really abusing the stat, and only after a possible in-game reason--glitching or critical glitching repeatedly in a short period of time on tests made with edge, for example (which, if he was abusing it, would be bound to happen sooner or later). Basically, I would treat it like acquiring a geas during gameplay.

What you describe in more detail (while still somewhat arbitrary; I can't help but wonder if you'd hand out Incompetence to someone that used Pistols too much, then glitched a few rolls?) is a far cry from the "easy way to curtail Mr. Lucky" you propose in your initial post.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bibliophile20
post Jul 10 2007, 11:34 AM
Post #21


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,180
Joined: 22-January 07
From: Rochester, NY
Member No.: 10,737



Hey, while I wouldn't go that route personally, I'm still pointing out that it's an option for really frustrated GMs. There is a difference between what someone will actually do and what the possible options are. I was just pointing out an option.

And as for your example of "Incompetence" when glitching on pistols, the two points are fundamentally different from my point of view:

A skill is just that--a skill. You learn it, you practice it, you eventually master it. Drivers pull donuts and figure eights, shooters make possibles, climbers go up sheer rock faces without gear, hackers defrost glacial nodes, and stuff of that nature. The skill is inherent to you. If you mess up, you shake your head, say that you weren't up to it today, and get back on the horse tomorrow.

Edge is fundamentally different from a skill--it is a measure of your luck. Luck is not something inherent to you, like a skill is; no one can learn how to be lucky, you just are, luck is saying that the universe favors me. But when someone slacks off (and I know plenty of people like this IRL) and just relies on their luck to coast through life, it can be a real shock when things suddenly stop going right for them, and their luck turns sour.

That's my personal perspective on what edge is and its difference from a normal stat; and as for the logic behind my "solution," relying on one's self is good, but relying solely on luck will only end badly when luck decides to become fickle.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Critias
post Jul 10 2007, 11:48 AM
Post #22


Freelance Elf
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 7,324
Joined: 30-September 04
From: Texas
Member No.: 6,714



But in-game luck is a part of you. Edge is a quantifiable, reliable, statistic that's been written down on a character sheet and paid for in full, every bit as much as Intelligence or Strength.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Buster
post Jul 10 2007, 11:53 AM
Post #23


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,246
Joined: 8-June 07
Member No.: 11,869



QUOTE (bibliophile20 @ Jul 10 2007, 06:06 AM)
QUOTE (Critias @ Jul 10 2007, 03:02 AM)
QUOTE (bibliophile20 @ Jul 10 2007, 01:50 AM)
And there's an easy way to curtail Mr. Lucky if he starts depending on his edge too much--the gods, powers-that-be, whatever, take offense and curse him to balance the scales, giving him the bad luck flaw.

Do you often hand out 20 point negative qualities to PCs, out of the blue?

Nope, I don't. And I would only, only, only pull such a stunt if the character was really abusing the stat, and only after a possible in-game reason--glitching or critical glitching repeatedly in a short period of time on tests made with edge, for example (which, if he was abusing it, would be bound to happen sooner or later). Basically, I would treat it like acquiring a geas during gameplay.

By abusing you mean using? In your game, characters are supposed to spend 40 bp on a stat they aren't allowed to use? You're punishing your players for following the rules. Is that the lesson you really want to teach your kids?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bibliophile20
post Jul 10 2007, 12:02 PM
Post #24


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,180
Joined: 22-January 07
From: Rochester, NY
Member No.: 10,737



QUOTE (Critias @ Jul 10 2007 @ 07:48 AM)
But in-game luck is a part of you. Edge is a quantifiable, reliable, statistic that's been written down on a character sheet and paid for in full, every bit as much as Intelligence or Strength.


Hey, we can agree to disagree, I'm just saying that that's my personal perspective on the edge stat and what it means in a metaphysical sense. Take it or leave it; I'm not going to force it on you, I'm just saying that that's what I think.

Also note that there is a difference from pointing out an option that exists and following through on it; I pointed out an option for curtailing over-use of Edge that doesn't harm everyone else and that makes sense in a semi-metaphysical sense. It doesn't mean that I'm going to use it.

And I would point out also that Magic is also a quantifiable stat that you pay for in full, but is described as fickle and can be lost or damaged in gameplay, and that its source is also fundamentally external to the character (as they channel mana through themselves, they don't produce it).

And I'm leaving it, and this discussion, at that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Buster
post Jul 10 2007, 02:06 PM
Post #25


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,246
Joined: 8-June 07
Member No.: 11,869



Bibliophile is really on to something though. Luck shouldn't be something you can rely on and in the current rules, it's completely reliable. In fact Edge is actually necessary for many tasks (such as binding spirits). I was surprised when I saw luck rules in SR 4. Luck was something that RPGs experimented with 20 years ago and nearly all of them have abandoned it.

I'm a total powergamer with Edge 6 and I would ask all my GMs to get rid of the longshot rules, they're just ridiculous. If I was writing SR 5, I would remove Edge from the game entirely and reduce the cost of attributes slightly. If Edge is supposed to be a measure of talent, attributes are a better measure of talent. Luck is something that should be left up to the GM and the dice.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

10 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 18th January 2020 - 05:35 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.