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> In game rewards and motivations
Crusher Bob
post Jul 11 2007, 05:51 AM
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Spun off from the Edge thread

QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
This begs for a spin-off thread.  But for now: what does money represent to the runners you see?

In parallel: would your group still play if you took away karma improvement entirely? and left only money in the equation?


I'd give up almost all character advancement in certain games, but not in SR. In part, because I'm unable to create a character I'd be really happy with using the SR starting character rules though I could come pretty close with BECKS.
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Particle_Beam
post Jul 11 2007, 05:56 AM
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Our group has advanced to a point of playing where we don't care for Karma anymore and just go with whatever suits us and what is okay for the GM. We don't even keep track of money anymore. That's not to say that our character don't. They're still a bunch of money-hungry terrorists for hire.
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Critias
post Jul 11 2007, 06:03 AM
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IC, no one would know or care. It's not like people can see some little xp bar over their head, glowing and shifting after every fight or something. In real life, I know I certainly can't always tell the instant I type a little faster or shoot a little better. Sure, I can compare my wpm (or a target) from today to one I typed (or shot) ten years ago -- but I couldn't tell you exactly what I did to earn those experience points, exactly when I spent them, etc, etc. With the exception of a few milestone achievements (like Initiating) I imagine most Shadowrun characters are, in-game, much the same.

Shadowrunners are in it for the money, for the most part. That's why you negotiate with a Johnson for more nuyen, not more karma. I've never seen a group of shadowy characters stand around a back room in a nightclub, send forward the pretty boy to talk to the guy in a suit, and insist on doing a job only if security at the target facility is doubled the day of their operation (so they can pressure their GM for extra karma at the end of the job). Just like real-life criminals, when you get right down to it they're in it for the cash.

And, with some groups, "just for the money" would remain a viable method of character advancement. In fact, it's even suggested in one of the old supplements as a way to play an "amoral" game. No karma (since they're doing bad things, and karma represents more than experience points) rewards, but allowing cash-for-karma and letting the players be as brutal and merciless and mercenary as they want to be (which is all based on the assumption average Shadowrun characters aren't, which makes me giggle).

Would advancement slow down? Sure. Would players lose interest? OOC, some would, sure. But IC? In-game? It's not like anyone would know.
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Strobe
post Jul 11 2007, 06:06 AM
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I play in a game where our GM did away with character creation rules. You just verbally ran down your story with him and we adjusted character stats as we went. My character ended up quite close to 400BP, someone else is more like 300BP and I'm sure some of the others are over.

To illustrate how it worked one of the players wanted to make a character who was incredibly good at playing pool. He ended up with a cyber arm, gyro mounts, internal air tank (so he can hold his breath taking the shot) along with a bunch of other stuff. He ended up getting ""recruited" into the military and trained as a sniper. Similar application of gear to playing pool.

It made interesting characters. We don't make much money as we spend all our time on the run from all the enemies we seem to make without noticing. Karma comes but is slow, maybe 2-4 per session.

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Cain
post Jul 11 2007, 06:32 AM
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The problem with a no-karma game is mages and otaku. They're more-or-less dependant on karma to grow and expand as characters. They *can* tell when they learn a new spell/complex form, when they go up a grade of initiation/submersion, etc, etc.

While I can picture a sam who never cares about increasing his skills, I can't picture a mage who never wants to learn a new spell.
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Particle_Beam
post Jul 11 2007, 06:46 AM
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Why not? If he thinks that he might know enough spells for now and cares more about money for lifestyle and a girlfriend, there is nothing wrong with magicians who don't use all their time to learn new spells.
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Crusher Bob
post Jul 11 2007, 06:48 AM
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That's easy, your mage could know every spell he already wants to know. Would the fact that you already know all the spells you want to know make you un-interested in playing the character?
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Marwynn
post Jul 11 2007, 06:52 AM
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This may be due to the fact that our group is new to SR as a whole but we typically view money/karma as just "reloading" in between adventures.

The story is the reward if it's done in an entertaining and fresh fashion. It's novel to us still that we can do all sorts of creative things (and have actual gameplay mechanics for it) instead of just making it up.

Don't get me wrong though, me likey the nuyen!

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Cain
post Jul 11 2007, 07:03 AM
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QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
That's easy, your mage could know every spell he already wants to know. Would the fact that you already know all the spells you want to know make you un-interested in playing the character?

There's no such thing as knowing too many spells. I suppose that you could theoretically learn every spell in Street Magic and the BBB, but that'd be well out of the reach of a functional starting character.

Part of playing a mage (and developing as a character) is to explore the mage's relationship with magic. Every last one of the traditions posted in Street Magic that have real-world counterparts, place their magical relationships as a #1 priority. There is no way that a mage wouldn't want to initiate or learn more spells.

Magic can be defined as the quest for knowledge; early on, there wasn't a demarcation between science and magic, and there still isn't in the minds of many people. For the magician, there's no such thing as too much knowledge; therefore, there's no such thing as too much magic.

To represent a character's growth and exploration of their relationship to magic, we have the rules for Initiation. This requires karma. So, a no-karma game would force every mage into a rubber-stamed mold of someone who was magical, yet totally disinterested in magic.
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Particle_Beam
post Jul 11 2007, 07:15 AM
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You can also simply make a voyage to the metaplanes, which is even more transcendental and furthering than learning any spell or initiating every time could ever be, or get to know other traditions better and share their view to better understand magic, without the need to have to turn this 'experience' in a new initiation grade or the next superspell that targets enemies and heals your allies on the same time (of course, that's not possible under the rules, but for whatever goal a mage might set, it's in an abstract manner quite viable, the same as searching means to teleport or to manipulate space and time). Sometimes, the magical experience simply is enough.

Besides, we are talking about shadowrunner mages, the type of people who aren't normally grounded into their tradition anyway, and many see in their gift a means to gain money the fast way, or physical power, or a new opportunity to see their abilities unfold in a society that challenges the best and gives out a great reward.
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toturi
post Jul 11 2007, 07:55 AM
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QUOTE (Particle_Beam)
You can also simply make a voyage to the metaplanes, which is even more transcendental and furthering...

And how you be doing that without Karma, pray tell? (Read between the lines: there's no canon way for you to do that without karma!)
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Particle_Beam
post Jul 11 2007, 08:07 AM
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Well, actually, there are, thanks to astral rifts, IF you're not initiated. You might also befriend another mage who has some spooky contacts, like a Free Greater Guidance Spirit, who would help you if you'd do some kind of special work for him (read: Shadowrun), like retrieve the guy who made a life-pact with him (of course, the spirit is not going to tell them that this guy's bonded with him), or other works.

Notice that I do not say that there isn't (or shouldn't be) any character progressions. Simply that you as player don't need to keep track of karma and money for yourself as motivation. You can easily abstract these two values, and focus on other things than waiting for the karma and money number finally exceeding a certain point so that your character's attributes increases by one or put up some cybergear into him.

My character is an initiate with at least a dozen spells and a quite powerful force 6 ally spirit, I as a player just don't need karma and money (by which I mean ingame money, not realworld-money, I of course love realworld-money :love: ) to have continual fun with my character. I just tell my GM that I think now might be okay for him to become initiated, we play a scenario where everybody's involved, and by the end, he simply is initiated, and then, we play several months without any stat changes, having wacky adventures and cinematic actions.
8)
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Cain
post Jul 11 2007, 08:08 AM
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QUOTE
You can also simply make a voyage to the metaplanes, which is even more transcendental and furthering than learning any spell or initiating every time could ever be

What do you think initiation *is*? By definition, it's the ultimate in transcendental experiences, bringing you to a higher understanding of the universe. As Toturi pointed out, you can't do that without karma.

QUOTE
Besides, we are talking about shadowrunner mages, the type of people who aren't normally grounded into their tradition anyway, and many see in their gift a means to gain money the fast way, or physical power, or a new opportunity to see their abilities unfold in a society that challenges the best and gives out a great reward.

All of which gives you good reason to learn that latest superspell, or initiate for more power. Enlightenment is just a fringe benefit. :S
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Cain
post Jul 11 2007, 08:14 AM
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QUOTE (Particle_Beam)
Well, actually, there are, thanks to astral rifts, IF you're not initiated. You might also befriend another mage who has some spooky contacts, like a Free Greater Guidance Spirit, who would help you if you'd do some kind of special work for him (read: Shadowrun), like retrieve the guy who made a life-pact with him (of course, the spirit is not going to tell them that this guy's bonded with him), or other works.

Notice that I do not say that there isn't (or shouldn't be) any character progressions. Simply that you as player don't need to keep track of karma and money for yourself as motivation. You can easily abstract these two values, and focus on other things than waiting for the karma and money number finally exceeding a certain point so that your character's attributes increases by one or put up some cybergear into him.

My character is an initiate with at least a dozen spells and a quite powerful force 6 ally spirit, I as a player just don't need karma and money (by which I mean ingame money, not realworld-money, I of course love realworld-money :love: ) to have continual fun with my character. I just tell my GM that I think now might be okay for him to become initiated, we play a scenario where everybody's involved, and by the end, he simply is initiated, and then, we play several months without any stat changes, having wacky adventures and cinematic actions.
8)

The problem here is that karma is still required for character advancement, you're just not tracking it strictly. You're still recieiving karma awards, allowing for character growth and development. (I'll also add that you can't have a friend summon a Greater Guidance spirit without someone having karma and initiating.)

The question that spawned this thread was rather or not we'd be happy with characters that never advanced at all-- just collected money. That'd be fine for the mundanes, but it'd screw mages horrifically.
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Lilt
post Jul 11 2007, 08:15 AM
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I wouldn't really see a problem with a no-karma game, but agree with what people are saying about it potentially gimping mage-types. Some people may have all the skills they need, or think they have all the skills they need, but in a no-karma campaign you either rue-out advancement or run it fast and loose. Ruling it out means you get the 'old dog can't learn new tricks' syndrome, and for some odd reason your characters can't learn anything even if they have good IC reasons to do so (what about the character who decides they need better melee defence and so take martial arts classes?).

I have no real problem with fast and loose, but what about when one character gets things faster and looser than another? Why is that innately better than just handing-out karma where the game determines the going rates?
QUOTE (Particle_Beam)
You can also simply make a voyage to the metaplanes, which is even more transcendental and furthering than learning any spell or initiating every time could ever be, or get to know other traditions better and share their view to better understand magic, without the need to have to turn this 'experience' in a new initiation grade or the next superspell that targets enemies and heals your allies on the same time (of course, that's not possible under the rules, but for whatever goal a mage might set, it's in an abstract manner quite viable, the same as searching means to teleport or to manipulate space and time). Sometimes, the magical experience simply is enough.
It's not entirely clear, do you actually mean that the character would learn some new magical abilities from the quest or not? If yes, how much do they learn?

If no, why not? It strikes me that it breaks the game from what the established possibilities are in SR. IE: X hermetic magician knows spell A, Y hermetic magician wants to learn it from him. The background, stories, and rules of SR say that Y should be able to learn A from another mage that knows it. Perhaps not the first mage, perhaps not the first spell they try and learn, but change that fact and you're essentially changing shadowrun.
QUOTE (Particle_Beam)
Besides, we are talking about shadowrunner mages, the type of people who aren't normally grounded into their tradition anyway, and many see in their gift a means to gain money the fast way, or physical power, or a new opportunity to see their abilities unfold in a society that challenges the best and gives out a great reward.
It strikes me as somewhat inconsiderate of the variety of mage type characters out there to label any mage who works in the shadows as a money-grabber, not grounded in their tradition.

Firstly: SR says that tradition is generally a personal thing. Each person finds their own way, and you can't say that doesn't involve running the shadows. It can be learnt from a tutor, true, but who's to say the tutor wasn't a runner from their own experiences.

Secondly: Many mentor spirits might bind a mage into the shadows in some way. What about the eco-terrorist Eagle/Dragonslayer shaman types, for whom fighting the polluting corps is appeasing their totem? What about the Wolf shaman types for whom the runner group are their pack? What about the Rat street shamans? Can you really accuse a mage following one of these paths as not being grounded in their tradition?

Perhaps we haven't really defined the term 'grounded into their tradition', but you can't with a blanket statement claim that all runners aren't following their tradition.

[edit]Hmm... Seems I'm a bit slow this morning. In my defence, I've not had any coffee yet.[/edit]
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Particle_Beam
post Jul 11 2007, 08:32 AM
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QUOTE (Cain)
The problem here is that karma is still required for character advancement, you're just not tracking it strictly. You're still recieiving karma awards, allowing for character growth and development. (I'll also add that you can't have a friend summon a Greater Guidance spirit without someone having karma and initiating.)

The question that spawned this thread was rather or not we'd be happy with characters that never advanced at all-- just collected money. That'd be fine for the mundanes, but it'd screw mages horrifically.
Sure you can. As I theorized, you could have a contact who might know or even is in fact a Free Greater Spirit with the Astral Gateway power, who will help you if you do him some favor. Or in most cases you acquire this by normal playing progression through roleplay. :P

Also, in our cases, we simply ditched character creation at the beginning, fairly like Strobe did. Whenever the character changes (if at all), it's more out of a guts-feeling and of how the campaign progressed, instead of finally having the necessary karma-points.

QUOTE (Lilt)
If no, why not? It strikes me that it breaks the game from what the established possibilities are in SR. IE: X hermetic magician knows spell A, Y hermetic magician wants to learn it from him. The background, stories, and rules of SR say that Y should be able to learn A from another mage that knows it. Perhaps not the first mage, perhaps not the first spell they try and learn, but change that fact and you're essentially changing shadowrun.
How does it break the game? People are still learning spell (by themselves, by others, whatever), some are still becoming initiated, some people become stronger, faster, more tough, smarter, more charismatic. overcome their fears and paranoia, their bad conditions, learn new tricks and so on, we simply don't keep track of the karma value, nor does the GM even award any. Character changes happen gradualy like in real life.

QUOTE
Perhaps we haven't really defined the term 'grounded into their tradition', but you can't with a blanket statement claim that all runners aren't following their tradition.
Notice as I did state the words normally and many, which does not equal all. :P
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adamu
post Jul 11 2007, 09:42 AM
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My first reaction to this thread was - take away my karma awards and you won't see me for dust.

But then I realized that I only am able to play-by-post now (in other words, I have been playing like a dog for over a year and my grand karma total spread over half a dozen characters for that entire time is 19), so essentially I am playing in a karma-free world. Nature of the PbP beast, I guess.

Nonetheless, me, nuyen is nice but I am still plugging away in hopes of karma awards. I have definite visions for my characters, and those visions can rarely be achieved at chargen - indeed, I usually START with character history and then work up the stats, and I have yet to have half the points I need just to justify the sort of knowledge and skills my characters would have picked up just living their lives up to game start.

I love role-playing, and more karma means more abilities means more latitude with what my character can do, which enhances the role-playing, adding cool and interesting actions to mere words on a page.

Just me briefly chiming in...
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Eleazar
post Jul 11 2007, 12:31 PM
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One of the main pillars of support to RPGs is progressing and improving your character, directly. I think it would be a rather lame any other way. Think about it in terms of real life. Wouldn't it be the most egregious thing to stay stagnant. To never increase above an intuition 2 or Logic 3. To always be average and mediocre in that area. Or maybe, in terms closer to Shadowrun, just to always be above-average and never achieve excellence. I just don't like it. I think Cain hits the nail right on the head with mages and technomancers.
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eidolon
post Jul 11 2007, 02:15 PM
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1) It really has varied depending on the characters being played. For many of them, it was the standard "path to success and retirement" type outlook. For others, means to some particular end. I have yet to see a character in my games that was unmotivated by money, but a lot of the time it's an indirect motivation.

On the player side, nearly all of the people I have played with viewed money as one of the inherent reward systems in the SR game. However, I have had players that were not upset when in-game circumstances meant that they didn't get paid, didn't get paid much, didn't make them rich, etc. So while they are motivated by the system's monetary reward structure, it wasn't the sole reason they played by any means.

2) Well, let's discount part of the question for a moment (whatever their primary motivation) and assume that the two motivations are the reward of Karma and Money. I have had players that would probably still play for only the monetary reward and for only the karmic reward. It really just depends on the player I think. Put back in "primary motivation" for the moment, and assume that you have players that are into the story of their character and the story going on around them, and I'd say that in my experience, most of the players I have had would still play. I have definitely had some thought for whom the only motivation is perceived character improvement by monetary and statistical measure, who would probably not get much enjoyment out of a game that lacked either.

Ha. So basically: depends on the player. How's that for earth shattering? ;)

For me, I have to say that the money and karma are pretty well equally important. That's not to say that I expect boatloads of both. I love a "scrape to pay the bills" game as much as I do a "I just bought my third Westwind Turbo" game. Actually, on Karma, less is more for me. I don't like getting so much K that my character sprints up the ladder and doesn't have to try anymore after four runs, but prefer the fun of "finally getting that skill up to 8" or something. "Other" primary motivations are my bread and butter though. I try to have some story based or character driven reason for continuing to play a character, and have retired a character mid-game and made a new one because the former's story was finished for the time being.
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 11 2007, 02:23 PM
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I'm just going to cross-reference eidolon's thread, in part for the opening post (as well as for the in-thread post -- which was copied here while I wrote this ;) ), because it's a different take than this one and gave perhaps different context. Is that context relevant? I really don't know -- but it would have been interesting to find out.

(Tsk, tsk. That'll teach you not to be awake during Hong Kong hours, eidolon.)

Here, IC and OOC motivations are definitely becoming blurred -- the latter mostly glossed over -- and the question of what money actually means to the character has been lost entirely. Eidelon -- edit your opening post to ask only that second question, and you'll have a completely unique thread.

For now, what I'm gathering from the answers is that whether character advancement is seen as important depends on two factors:

Players playing min-maxed specialists seem to place little or no focus on advancement relative to generalists.

Players playing mundane characters see far less relevance in karma than those playing Awakened or technomancer types. A specific point brought up here was the perception that continual learning lay at the core of Awakened or technomancer types -- only.
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mfb
post Jul 11 2007, 05:27 PM
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the idea of not advancing your character is just... weird, to me. i've played min-maxed specialists, i've played generalists, i've played mundane and Awakened, and i fight for every scrap of karma pretty much equally on all of them. i can only think of one character i've tried extra-hard to get karma for, and that's because i designed her with a specific vision in mind (both IC and OOC). i like seeing my characters advance and improve, develop and change. i get a big kick out of surviving a situation that i know would have killed my char earlier in their career. advancement isn't the only reason i play, not by a long shot--but it's one of the big ones.
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James McMurray
post Jul 11 2007, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE (mfb)
the idea of not advancing your character is just... weird, to me. i've played min-maxed specialists, i've played generalists, i've played mundane and Awakened, and i fight for every scrap of karma pretty much equally on all of them. i can only think of one character i've tried extra-hard to get karma for, and that's because i designed her with a specific vision in mind (both IC and OOC). i like seeing my characters advance and improve, develop and change. i get a big kick out of surviving a situation that i know would have killed my char earlier in their career. advancement isn't the only reason i play, not by a long shot--but it's one of the big ones.

QFT
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Moon-Hawk
post Jul 11 2007, 05:40 PM
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I have mixed feelings about advancement. As a player, I love it. I crave it. I am a karma/experience whore. Leveling up makes my tumors wiggle in the cancer game.
And that is exactly why, as a GM, I don't like it. The best RPing I have ever seen has been in situations where there is no advancement, or where advancement is so rare no one thinks about it anymore. (ex: one-shots, characters who know they're going to die, mid-high level AD&D2, etc) When there's no XP on the line or no level-up looming on the horizon, then people stop trying to get it and just concentrate on playing the game.
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tisoz
post Jul 11 2007, 05:49 PM
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Maybe advancement is not so important. There are a lot of PbP games where people beg to have their characters accepted for play that offer no reward other than completing the mission.

Maybe advancement is important, because the newness of getting accepted to the game rubs off pretty quick and a lot of those games fold.
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mfb
post Jul 11 2007, 05:54 PM
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i don't think i'd still be playing PbP if it were all one-off games where i have to roll up a new char every time. i've been playing the same char on shadowland for seven years, all the way from his first run to his semi-retirement. i've started several other characters i plan on playing for at least that long. i'll do one-off games, sure, and have a lot of fun with them, but playing those exclusively? it's like trying to live on tic-tacs.
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