Cursed Karma, Curses, foiled again! Options

[tisoz]

I don't see anything prohibiting this, but if a character with Cursed Karma blows the roll to see if the opposite effect happens, can the player use karma for a re-roll?

[Kagetenshi]

Probably not without a houserule, since IIRC karma rerolls apply to tests, which that roll isn't.

~J

[Angelone]

What do you mean like throwing a grenade at someone and rolling hoping it doesn't hit them and then blowing that roll so it catches them full in the face? Or rolling to hope some random wageslave doesn't come out of a secure facility to hand you the data you were hired to snatch?

[Kagetenshi]

Cursed Karma is a flaw that, whenever you spend karma, forces you to roll 1d6. On a 1, the exact opposite of your intention occurs (+1 TN for Hooper-Nelson, -1 die for buying a die, reroll all successes for reroll failures, etc.). His question is if you can spend karma to reroll that 1d6.

~J

[Angelone]

Oh wow, I read that so wrong it's not even funny. Where is my head today? It's not in the letter of the law, but I'd say it's in the spirit that no you couldn't.

[Kagetenshi]

That's just it—I think it is in the letter of the law that you can't.

The spirit is harder to see. On the one hand, you just spent additional karma which could itself backfire, so you've got a (5^2)/(6^2) chance of not actually improving your lot, and even if you do you've spent more karma. On the other, you get to avoid automatic bad things.

~J

[Angelone]

[Talia Invierno]

Probability theory. 25/36 chance of things being about the same or worse based on a reroll on karma pool -- how did you get that number btw, Kagetenshi?

[Kagetenshi]

You have a 5/6 chance of not getting a 1 on any 1d6 roll. If you spend karma to reroll a Cursed Karma roll-of-1, you have a 5/6 chance of not rolling a 1 on your Cursed Karma check for the karma you just spent, and then another 5/6 chance of not rolling a 1 on the reroll of the original Cursed Karma check.

The odds of not rolling a 1 on both checks are equal to the odds of not rolling a 1 on one check multiplied by the odds of not rolling a 1 on the other, or (5/6)*(5/6), which is equal to (5*5)/(6*6), or (5^2)/(6^2), or 25/36, or about 69.4%. This compared to the simple 5/6 chances of not rolling a 1 to begin with, which is about 83.3%.

~J

[Shrapnel]

The way I look at it, you could always spend more karma on the original roll, but not to reroll the 1d6.

For instance, you use one karma to reroll failures, but end up rerolling successes. It seems to me you could just spend more karma to reroll failures again, but this starts to get expensive rather quickly...

Or let's say you use one karma to buy a success, but instead lose a success. I see no reason why you can't burn more karma to buy more successes, but you still have the Cursed Karma flaw to worry about on each success you attempt to buy.

This is the way I enterpret it, and somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. I happen to have a vested interest in this topic, as my newest character does happen to have Cursed Karma...
:eek:

[Kagetenshi]

That seems like a reasonable ruling, but I'd have to check to see if it's a valid interpretation of canon.

~J

[tisoz]

I have never had this situation come up, or even have a player try to pull it. I kind of wondered why.

I agree with Kagetenshi that karma should not be allowed to re-roll the 1D6 to see if bad things happen. But as Shrapnel pointed out, can more karma be used toward the original roll? This makes the point about not being a Test roll moot.

[Talia Invierno]

Ah. You were including the original odds in that. That's what I'd not understood, when you were talking about "not actually improving your lot" -- the wording threw me, since it sounded like you were talking only odds after the original roll.

[Critias]

The few times it's come up, we've played it so that you cannot reroll the 1d6, but can go back and increase the karma expenditure to attempt a reroll at the initial die roll in question.

IE, I roll and only get a few successes. I decide to karma, flub it on my 1d6 jazz, and have to reroll those successes (giving me a worse result). I can then use the usual rules (doubling and tripling, etc, karma expenditure along the way) to attempt another reroll of my failures.

It gets expensive very fast, but, well, that's why Flaws are worth points.

[Kagetenshi]

Ah. You were including the original odds in that. That's what I'd not understood, when you were talking about "not actually improving your lot" -- the wording threw me, since it sounded like you were talking only odds after the original roll.

I wasn't talking about the original odds, but if you're trying to reroll a Cursed Karma die, you've got two chances to have Cursed Karma come up again (the CK die for the CK reroll, and then the CK reroll itself)—either of which will make your expenditure worthless.

~J

[Critias]

And keeping track of which would give you headaches.

[Talia Invierno]

Hmm. That would make sense of the original diminishing odds. I'd not considered that the re-roll would itself be considered potentially cursed, in addition to the re-roll of the original cursed die.

If that roll is to be allowed at all, however: wouldn't the re-roll erase the original losing dice results?

[tisoz]

[Kagetenshi]

You skipped the "apply negative effects" section, but yeah, that's basically how I understand it. If I get the chance I'll confirm the wording this evening.

~J

[Critias]

There's not much wording to check. Cursed Karma, as written makes no mention whatsoever of second, third, or any other additional attempts at karma expenditure being exempt (or not being exempt).

[Talia Invierno]

[Critias]

I'd say we're getting into "common sense" and "GM fiat" territory with stuff like that, really, since the RAW don't even say you can try in the first place. It all comes down to how much you think a six point Flaw should be worth, and just how strongly you think it should inconvenience/endanger the character in question.

[Talia Invierno]

It doesn't say you can't try either. As to common sense, the player doing the reroll is just taking the same risk anew.

Edit for completion post interruption: the player is spending karma pool to even get a chance, and the risk isn't going away in the new roll. It's just that the old one isn't being hung onto.

[tisoz]

[Sedna]

Right, the doubling effect. You're right, I'm wrong. Obviously I need sleep.