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 Self expression Sota |
 Aug 1 2007, 04:44 PM
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#51
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Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
fair 'nuff. i was mainly aiming my response at DLN and Snow Fox, to be honest. re: reverse discrimination, Kage skewed his facts. yes, there are more disadvantaged humans than disadvantaged orks--because there are more humans than orks. the percentage of the ork population who are disadvantaged is much, much higher than the percentage of humans who are disadvantaged. and as far as human-oriented assistance programs, i'm pretty sure Kage's smoking crack. there are any number of grants, scholarships, basic skill programs, job-search networks, and the like funded by Humanis. |
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Aug 2 2007, 12:34 PM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 976 Joined: 16-September 04 From: Near my daughters, Lansdale PA Member No.: 6,668 |
And that shows the arrogance of the changed ones who listen to their demagogic leadership who equates brute strength with ability.
Metas may have come from humans, but that does not mean they are humans now. Humans came from apes and we are not apes now. Again I will say that the unfortunate changed ones do have a place in society but they get into trouble when some well meaning left leaning academic tries to give them ideas of living in a way they cannot handle and which the media dupes them into thinking is the only way to be happy. |
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Aug 2 2007, 01:38 PM
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#53
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Apparently, you dislike reading. Human regression is a (rare) possibility in children of metahumans. Thus, orks came from humans (and still do rarely) and humans rarely come from orks. Now, as to whether orks are still 'humans' is a matter of definition, since they are biologically equivalent. And the accepted definition is that they are a subspecies, genentically compatible but distinctly different from the other 4 subspecies of humanity. Now, argue the sociological side all you want, but the biologist assessment is established, and will not be disproven by your rants. |
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Aug 2 2007, 06:39 PM
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#54
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
see, that's why a lot of orks don't even try to fit in with smoothie society: the blatantly two-faced crap they have to listen to. DLN keeps saying orks should keep to the back of the bus, but i guarantee she tells her own kids they can grow up to be CEO or president or something. you'll tell a human to stretch beyond his inherent limitations, but you feed orks that "don't go chasing waterfalls" happy claptrap.
yes, orks have limitations. so do humans. you wouldn't tell a human to stop weightlifting because physical strength isn't an ability he's naturally gifted in--so why tell an ork to stop trying to be smarter or better liked? [ Spoiler ]
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Aug 2 2007, 06:45 PM
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#55
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Yeah! And a dog can be a scientist, too!
~J |
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Aug 2 2007, 06:55 PM
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#56
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
if i ever met a dog that wanted to be a scientist, i wouldn't try to stop him. i might take him on the talkshow circuit and make a buttload of money off him, but i wouldn't try to stop him from being a scientist.
besides, dogs have nothing to do with the discussion. in every field humans have delved into, there are orks, trolls, dwarves, and elves delving right along side them. whatever limitations metas may have, they're not limiting enough to justify barring them from any human activity. |
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Aug 2 2007, 07:01 PM
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#57
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Well, aside from amusement park and water park rides that haven't been enlarged for the troll crowd yet. And then there's all the roller coasters that effectively have 'no dwarves allowed' with their height requirement. On the plus side, dwarves tend to save money at buffets that have height based pricing guidelines... |
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Aug 2 2007, 07:13 PM
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#58
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Show me an Ork who does serious work in particle physics. Show me an Ork who has contributed significant original understanding to combinatorics. Orks and Trolls are simply not represented in many fields, and promising minds who have undergone late Goblinization have fallen into obscurity. This is not coincidence.
~J |
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Aug 2 2007, 07:32 PM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
How should one show an Ork working seriously in particle physics? All humans and metahumans in SR are absolutely ficitional, so you can invent them up on the fly however you want. :P
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Aug 2 2007, 08:53 PM
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#60
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
And so, meet Bob, the orc Particle Physicist!
Seriously though, How do you know? Unlike last centuries ethnicity, you can't determine if a person is an ork, a troll, an elf, dwarf or human from their name. Any one of the scientists who publishes papers could be any metatype. You'd have to look up the personal life of the scientist to find out. In fact, in order to judge at all, you'd have to do it to a representative sample of the scientific community in order to get meaningful statistics to judge. You'll note I didn't trot out individually gifted metas. I referenced studies. Studies showing that across the board meta performance in academic tests has improved. I offered some theories as to why that may be, but the data itself is incontrovertable (as the editions have come, the penalty to intelligence and charisma in orcs and trolls has decreased) I've seen some meaningful statistics on this, actually, and you are right, there ARE few orcs and trolls in the scientific community. There are also few dwarves in the scientific community, and if you correct for the Tirs, an equally small number of elves. Neither dwarves or elves have ever shown difficulty in academic performance statistically. Given the equally small number of all metatypes in the scientific community, it's far more appropriate to assume a systemic bias against metahumans, instead of any performance-based limitation on the part of any single metatype. |
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Aug 2 2007, 09:37 PM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047 |
There are lies, damn lies and statistics.
Taking the two Tir's as an example, there are very few successful human scientists. Racism works not a practical level but on an elitist one, a desire to make what you wish to believe true happen. In the shadows the majority of orcs and trolls are more than capable of intelligent abstraction. The capabilities of the Sons of Sauron are equivalent to the Hand of Five, for example. Gifted artists span across the metatypes, better demonstrating the collective humanity. |
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Aug 2 2007, 09:42 PM
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#62
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you're right--it's not a coincidence. it proves that prejudice against orks and trolls still has a strong negative impact on their ability to succeed and advance in smoothie society, despite all the programs that support them. maybe there's solid reasoning for that prejudice, maybe there isn't--but your line of logic doesn't prove, or even suggest, anything either way. |
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Aug 2 2007, 09:46 PM
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#63
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Statistics are only lies when you the methodology used to gather them remains undisclosed. In science, there are three forms of data, in ascending order of usefulness: Case studies, General studies, and repeatable experiments. You can't generalize from a case study, but you CAN generalize from general studies. You can generalize from repeated experiments, and you can infer causation as well. Now we'll never know causation for certain in subjects like these, because the exxperiments would be horrible unethical. So general studies are the best we've got to go on.
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Aug 3 2007, 02:35 PM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 976 Joined: 16-September 04 From: Near my daughters, Lansdale PA Member No.: 6,668 |
But I would tell a person who was trying to compete with an ork or troll in weightlifting that they could not hope to compete and should understand their limitations. As for the idea that a dog would not make a scientist, I think it is valid. the fact the dog cannot let you know what he wants is not proof he does not want it, just further reinforces the image. A great many trolls and orks are not terribly articulate either. If just speech is a requirment then you arem aking my case for me. Orks are just not capable of acting at the same level as people and to make them think otherwise, just to stroke some human guilt does them only a great disservice. |
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Aug 3 2007, 02:57 PM
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#65
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
and by doing so, you'd be screwing a whole lot of humans out of their trophies, since humans in the 75kg class win about as often as their ork and troll competitors. of course, the real problem with your argument is that you're putting it in terms of competition--of us versus them--which means that anytime they succeed, then you have lost, in your eyes. you're choosing to view metahumans as the enemy, however much sugar you try and coat it with. |
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Aug 4 2007, 01:19 AM
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#66
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
If you haven't figured it out DLN is Japanese. She's reliable on a run but does not work well with metas. Her prejudices are pretty well established by her culture and she has the blinders on that won't let her see the good to be found in all people.
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Aug 4 2007, 01:26 AM
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#67
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
It's laughable that someone trying to claim that Orks are people too is calling someone blinkered. Appointed your horse to lead the Senate recently?
~J |
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Aug 4 2007, 01:51 AM
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#68
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
unsurprising that the guy preaching hate is the first one to go for the name-calling.
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Aug 4 2007, 02:23 AM
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#69
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Agreed. There was no call for such blatant racism, like the following:
But I don't think Snow_Fox is a guy. ~J |
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Aug 4 2007, 02:27 AM
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#70
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I must have totally missed something in this conversation. Where is the hate and racism in that comment? Cultural stereotyping, sure, but there's a big different between that and "racism." Particularly in the context it's being used here. And I don't see how there's any namecalling at all. "OMFG, she called her Japanese! RACIST! RACIST!" ???
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Aug 4 2007, 02:43 AM
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#71
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
"She's Japanese, so obviously she's prejudiced and blinkered and can't work with metas!"
~J |
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Aug 4 2007, 02:45 AM
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#72
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
>>> Tell that to my chummer Blizt, oh wait, he was gacked by a couple of Trogs because everyone knows that all Japanese people drink the blood of meta babies before breakfest. <<< -Trell
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Aug 4 2007, 02:49 AM
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#73
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
That would be the cultural stereotyping which, again, is different than racism. Especially if it's true and especially if it's true because she chose that trait due to the cultural stereotyping.
You'll also note that the way Snow Fox said it, her being Japanese was simply another trait of hers ("She's Japanese, she's reliable, but doesn't work well with metas") -- you're the one who put them together. So doesn't that make you the racist by your terms? You're the one assuming she's racist because she's Japanese. "I'm an American. I like to eat fast food and watch television." OMFG I'm a self-hating American! |
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Aug 4 2007, 02:54 AM
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#74
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, isn't that true? haven't the vast, vast majority of Japanese citizens and Japan-based corporations shown a persistent bias against metahumans, to the point where Japan has the highest incidence of 'vanished' metahumans, according to Amnesty Int'l? to the point where, when one of their own CEOs was transformed into a 'changed one', Yamatetsu was forced to relocate their headquarters? |
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Aug 4 2007, 02:59 AM
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#75
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
>>> Whatever you want to call it, doesn't make Blizt any less dead and it doesn't change the fact that the Trogs gacked him because of what you want to call "cultural stereotyping". <<< -Trell
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