IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Question bout them SINners, could affect my game
Starmage21
post Jul 16 2007, 12:37 AM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 745
Joined: 13-April 07
From: Houston, Texas
Member No.: 11,448



One of my PCs has the SINner flaw(an Ares SIN no less), and wants to have a firearm registered to that SIN as a legally owned gun(Ares Predator). I am inclined to let him do it, but I wanted to make sure of the legal repercussions if he should choose to use said firearm in the wrong fashion(the usual shadowrunner way).

Say forensics picks up a slug fired from his gun. What are the chances that through a check of all registered firearms that the ballistics profile for his gun would be saved somehow so that they didnt need the actual gun anymore for a check? So if he shoots it, bullets are recovered, and Lone Star is at his house the next day.

What sort of processes might 2070 police use to work this?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TheDrake
post Jul 16 2007, 12:46 AM
Post #2


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 27
Joined: 17-August 06
Member No.: 9,151



I was just thinking about what kind of process you would have to go through to get a legit firearms permit. I figure that part of the process is taking a ballistics profile of the gun at registration. Of course, you can change the profile of a gun by running a hard object, like a file or nail, down the barrel once or twice.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
eidolon
post Jul 16 2007, 12:49 AM
Post #3


ghostrider
********

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 4,196
Joined: 16-May 04
Member No.: 6,333



I can't remember if it was ever canon, but I do recall the answer to this question boiling down to whether or not manufacturers are required to fingerprint their weapons right off the assembly line.

This would basically mean
- Gun is made.
- Gun is fired for ballistic fingerprinting.
- Records of that batch are fed to law enforcement.
- Runner fires weapon.
- Law enforcement retrieves a slug in good enough shape to check against database.
- Weapon pops up on screen, along with purchase records and ownership information.
- Law enforcement knocks on door.
- Owner goes to jail.

But there are a lot of "iffy" things in that trail. A lot of good arguments/points exist for either take on it.

Like I said, may be canon on it, I can't remember.

Oh, and disclaimer: I'm not a ballistics expert, and have no idea whether ballistic fingerprinting is or isn't all that useful in RL.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
James McMurray
post Jul 16 2007, 12:53 AM
Post #4


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,430
Joined: 10-January 05
From: Fort Worth, Texas
Member No.: 6,957



In my game the chance of being immediately tagged would be 100% if they don't take any precautions.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
coolgrafix
post Jul 16 2007, 12:58 AM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 453
Joined: 15-August 02
From: Kansas City, MO
Member No.: 3,116



To have a permission to own and carry a gun TODAY you need no such profiling of your weapon. Indeed, the whole idea is ludicrous since it's trivial to alter the profile post purchase.

With regard to canon, there's nothing about it in SR4. I don't think there was anything about it before, either, but it would be irrelevant since it's not in SR4. The weapons book may change this.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
eidolon
post Jul 16 2007, 01:00 AM
Post #6


ghostrider
********

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 4,196
Joined: 16-May 04
Member No.: 6,333



QUOTE (coolgrafix)
Indeed, the whole idea is ludicrous since it's trivial to alter the profile post purchase.

Ah, yes. I knew there was something that always came up in those discussions that I was forgetting.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post Jul 16 2007, 01:04 AM
Post #7


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



If he has any clue as to what he's doing, there is no chance. He gets a spare barrel (slagging down the one used on each run) and uses caseless ammo. Or frangible. Even without it, it's unlikely. The assorted so-called "ballistic fingerprinting" stuff doesn't work without a very defined population of weapons, which is why the Maryland State Police asked the state program be ended, as it's a money pit that has solved NO crimes.

The rifling changes as rounds are fired. I've fired thousands of rounds through most of the weapons I've owned, and a stainless steel borebrush would do wonders, I'm sure. And with caseless ammo there is no primer strike/ejector evidence, and a study by California DoJ showed that case matching is really unreliable even if they did have a case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_fingerprinting
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Starmage21
post Jul 16 2007, 01:08 AM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 745
Joined: 13-April 07
From: Houston, Texas
Member No.: 11,448



are the rounds available in Shadowrun come caseless as a standard?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TheDrake
post Jul 16 2007, 01:11 AM
Post #9


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 27
Joined: 17-August 06
Member No.: 9,151



QUOTE (SR4 BBB pg.306)
Many weapons offer two versions, for standard loads or for caseless ammunition, though the latter is far more common in the 2070s. A weapon can fire either type of ammunition, but not both interchangeably.

This makes me think that ammo comes caseless unless specified.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
tweak
post Jul 16 2007, 01:25 AM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 188
Joined: 26-August 05
Member No.: 7,622



I suggest watching the Max Headroom episode "The Blanks" for some ideas. Blanks and SINless are pretty much the same thing, so the story hits on some of your questions.

tweak
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kingmaker
post Jul 16 2007, 01:27 AM
Post #11


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 85
Joined: 16-June 07
Member No.: 11,924



Assuming caseless ammo technology has improved from 2007 to 2070, I can't think a reason why a criminal would want traditional ammo.

Of course, on the other hand, if you are really into realism, Seattle's climate would not be the best place for caseless.

The way my GM has played it is if a SINner character takes basic precautions to avoid being IDed on a run, they won't get caught.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post Jul 16 2007, 01:31 AM
Post #12


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



As in: "Try not to leave large amounts of your blood and tissues at the scene of a mass murder"?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kingmaker
post Jul 16 2007, 01:38 AM
Post #13


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 85
Joined: 16-June 07
Member No.: 11,924



Well, you clean that up. Or don't get shot.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
apollo124
post Jul 16 2007, 04:16 AM
Post #14


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 458
Joined: 28-March 05
From: NA/UCAS/IN/
Member No.: 7,246



Also, just a touch off topic, your Ares SINner may have some corp protection, if Ares decides that it doesn't want to cooperate with the local law on that day. Of course, that may lead to your fellow corp drones knocking on his door 20 minutes later, but you takes your chances. Extradition from a corporate enclave may be a minor technicality or a major stumbling block. Of course, if it does get stopped, you better not get caught out on the town, or the cops may take it real personal.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ravor
post Jul 16 2007, 05:11 AM
Post #15


Cybernetic Blood Mage
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,472
Joined: 11-March 06
From: Northeastern Wyoming
Member No.: 8,361



Well personally I tend to handle permits rather broadly, for example, a "Concealed Carry" permit works for every gun, but Pig Star is going to be extra jumpy if they know that you are permited to sling mojo or carry firearms.

As for a legal SINner having a permit, I allow it for free, but make sure that the player understands that this means that he is going to looked at extra hard even if he is innocent, and in the Sixth World the corps have every right to persume that you are guilty until proven innocent. (Sure, it may or may not be "legal" for them to do so depending on your citizenship status and where you got caught, but no-one is going to dare to stop them so it might as well be.)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Starmage21
post Jul 16 2007, 02:07 PM
Post #16


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 745
Joined: 13-April 07
From: Houston, Texas
Member No.: 11,448



QUOTE (Ravor)
Well personally I tend to handle permits rather broadly, for example, a "Concealed Carry" permit works for every gun, but Pig Star is going to be extra jumpy if they know that you are permited to sling mojo or carry firearms.

As for a legal SINner having a permit, I allow it for free, but make sure that the player understands that this means that he is going to looked at extra hard even if he is innocent, and in the Sixth World the corps have every right to persume that you are guilty until proven innocent. (Sure, it may or may not be "legal" for them to do so depending on your citizenship status and where you got caught, but no-one is going to dare to stop them so it might as well be.)

I got pulled over by a highway patrol officer in Texas once while living there. He completely surprised me when he walked up to the window and said "I need your drivers liscence, proof of insurance, and your firearm please".
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ravor
post Jul 16 2007, 02:31 PM
Post #17


Cybernetic Blood Mage
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,472
Joined: 11-March 06
From: Northeastern Wyoming
Member No.: 8,361



Yeah, our local Highway Porkers aren't nearly as competant it seems, the one time I was pulled over by one, it wasn't until he had me sitting in his passenger seat with him that the dispatcher came in over the radio warning that a concealed carry permit was issued to the driver.

Hells, they had even looked up the wrong name because I didn't even have a permit at that time.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Caine Hazen
post Jul 16 2007, 02:52 PM
Post #18


MechRigger Delux
***

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 1,151
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Hanger 18, WPAFB
Member No.: 1,657



Add RFID tags to all the bullets being manufactured, and have the gun deposit its ID when fired... keep the player on his toes...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hyzmarca
post Jul 16 2007, 02:59 PM
Post #19


Midnight Toker
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,686
Joined: 4-July 04
From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop
Member No.: 6,456



I prefer to think of most of the UCAS and most UCAS-based Mega( Ares especially) as being Shall Issue, rather than May Issue. Getting a carry permit is very easy for anyone with a SIN and no criminal weapon and weapon carry is so common that the police will only ask to see a permit if they want to harass you or if you're carrying something like an assault cannon. This is rather necessary due to the roving bands of highwaymen that are incredibly common in the Sixth World UCAS. You're practically more likely to be accosted by a go-gang when commuting to work than not.

Ballistic fingerprinting is not really an issue.

Other, more totalitarian, regimes have stricter requirements, however.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ravor
post Jul 16 2007, 03:22 PM
Post #20


Cybernetic Blood Mage
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,472
Joined: 11-March 06
From: Northeastern Wyoming
Member No.: 8,361



Caine Hazen I'm not convinced that a RFID tag would be capable of surviving being fired out of a gun, much less impacting the target.

*Edit*

Although if possible it would be neat to be able to frame someone by hacking your own gun to desposit someone else's ID.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ryu
post Jul 16 2007, 03:38 PM
Post #21


Awakened Asset
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,464
Joined: 9-April 05
From: AGS, North German League
Member No.: 7,309



Buying a registered weapon on a legal non-criminal SIN should be no problem itself under most jurisdiction.

The weapon itself is/should be registered via chip. If you remove said chip, your license gains you nothing. If you donĀ“t, weapon detectors register and remember your gun bein g present. There has better be no unexplained shooting while you are present.

If you are investigated for whatever reason, you better have some kind of license for any weapon found, and should be able to produce any weapon registered in your name on short notice.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PlatonicPimp
post Jul 17 2007, 12:25 AM
Post #22


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,219
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Lofwyr's stomach.
Member No.: 1,320



About RFID tags: In my game I have traditional (read, non-corporate) law regard digital ANYTHING as questionable evidence, and it would be really easy to get it thrown out if your lawyer was halfway decent. Essentially, it's just too damn easy to hack digital evidence, and no protections are foolproof. Hence, an RFID tag would NOT be admissiblle information. However, the police may still get a warrant based on it, and go find some evidence they CAN use.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
coolgrafix
post Jul 17 2007, 01:46 AM
Post #23


Moving Target
**

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 453
Joined: 15-August 02
From: Kansas City, MO
Member No.: 3,116



It makes absolutely no sense to manufacture bullets with individual RFID tags. Of course, for inventory purposes a tag would go on the box the bullets came in. But since tag erasers cost almost nothing, it's trivial (that word again) for criminals or even ordinary citizens to ERASE or EDIT them. Hackers can edit or erase RFID tags of products in grocery stores NOW. There is no value to RFID tags on bullets, hence, it follows that such things wouldn't exist. IMHO.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Moon-Hawk
post Jul 17 2007, 04:55 PM
Post #24


Genuine Artificial Intelligence
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,019
Joined: 12-June 03
Member No.: 4,715



QUOTE (coolgrafix)
But since tag erasers cost almost nothing, it's trivial (that word again) for criminals or even ordinary citizens to ERASE or EDIT them.

But that relies on the assumption that the perpetrator of a crime is not a complete f-ing moron.
I think it would still be useful much of the time.
Besides, useful or not I could definitely see people voting for an initiative that required RFID tags in bullets because they think it will make them safer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DireRadiant
post Jul 17 2007, 06:01 PM
Post #25


The Dragon Never Sleeps
*********

Group: Admin
Posts: 6,924
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,667



Fundamentally this is a 5 BP negative quality. If you look at other examples, this often translates into a 2 dice penalty on the pool.

Apply this level of penalty to whatever process you are applying to all characters.

If the NPC have a forensics check of some kind, apply an extra 2 dice for that characters test.

All else is fluff and up to you as GM to decide. Have fun.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 8th July 2020 - 01:45 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.