 Melee House Rule Critque, Going back to the old rules |
  |
 Jul 17 2007, 04:46 PM
Post
#51
|
|||||
|
Shadow Cartographer  Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636  |
Reaction makes more sense to me than strength as the attribute to roll, because although in the real world strength can help you land a hit by knocking people's guard down, forcing them off-balance etc, really it's reaction time that is critical to landing a hit. Strength is already factored in as the basis for damage so it plays its role. And strength is an absolute must for damaging someone. It doesn't take much strength to floor someone if you finger jab them in the throat, kick them in the load-bearing knee side onwards (lateral to the joint) or gouge an eye. These are just examples. Strength has a large role in real-life combat, but this is already in the close-combat sequence in the rules. Reaction isn't and it makes more sense than Agility. |
||||
 |
 
|
||||
|
Jul 17 2007, 05:18 PM
Post
#52
|
|||||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 25-May 07 From: Florianópolis, Brasil Member No.: 11,747 |
I can agree with this, at least for some martial arts like aikido. But in a general point of view, IMHO, hitting someone with a punch (or a kick, or whatever) is more a agility thing (at least, when you thing ability as described in RAW, as a mix of coordination, precision and balance). Reaction is cool when you think a fight as a response for being hit... but most of the time fighting is hitting first, and hitting hard. But i guess that has something with individual styles of play. At least for me, no matter how good you are on a martial art when your opponent moves 3 times faster than a normal human. And makes no sense the martial artist being faster when it fights a faster people than when he fights a slower one.
Hey, Critias. I was just having some fun with that post... i guess i need a bigger LOL on the end of it next time. Please, no hard feelings. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jul 17 2007, 05:19 PM
Post
#53
|
|
|
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
What? No. I was just joking back. I was saying "crap" and "poop" and stuff like that. If I'd actually been ranting or raving, it would've been more colorful. Yes. "Colorful."
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 17 2007, 05:34 PM
Post
#54
|
|
|
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Melee combat needs to be based on Agility, IMO. Melee combat should be affected by all physical stats. You can argue that some matter more than others, and you'd probably be right, but you don't want to make any of them irrelevant.
Reaction determines initiative. Agility determines the attack. Reaction resists the attack. Strength determines the damage. Body resists the damage. If you switch the attack rolls to anything else, Agility isn't useful anymore in melee combat so your house rule needs to include a use for Agility. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 17 2007, 05:47 PM
Post
#55
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,150 |
I've had several melee battles in my recent campaign and have never had an issue. The two best ones were my troll adept player vs an entire gang of scrubs and Sam the Street sammie vs another gilette.
The troll adept has some ridiculous base damage, but average dice to hit. However, although some people may gripe that you can only make one melee attack per action, that is not exactly true, as you can split your dice pool to hit multiple opponents. This is exactly what he did, dropping three in range (thanks to reach), charging and dropping three more with his extra initiative pass (they were all clumped up due to terrain). Yeah, it won't happen every time, but 6 gangers splattered in 2 IP is pretty damn good. Sam the Street Sammie has Strength 7 cyberarms with twin spurs and 6 in cyberweapons (specialty spurs). The boosted reaction doesn't hurt either. She slices and dices pretty well. I should add now that I remember it I did make two changes: 1) I reinstated the +1 dice pool bonus from third edition for using two weapons at once. This just seemed like common sense to me (why else would Sam have two, if not to cut and parry with both?) 2) I don't allow the -3 dodge penalty to apply to firearm attacks made in the same melee. For example, if A & B are fighting in melee, and C is a short distance away: A is -3 to shoot B and C, but neither has a dodge penalty. C can shoot A or B and either would get a -3 dodge penalty. If C was also in a separate melee, C would be -3 to shoot A or B but A and B would be -3 to defend. I just didn't like people being able to shoot point blank at no penalty. My players seem to like it. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 17 2007, 10:42 PM
Post
#56
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
What happens if we allow it to be more like a called shot.
The defender can chose to parry for Reaction + Weapons skill or Block for Reaction + Unarmed skill, or Riposte for Reaction + Weapon (or unarmed) (threshold 2). If the Defender wins the net sucesses count as net hits on a hit against the attacker. The Riposter is generally only going to work when vastly better then their attackers. (effective 6 dice penalty); however, if a group of kindegarten kids are attacking Jackie Chan, somebody is going to get hurt :-) |
|
|
|
|
Jul 18 2007, 02:04 AM
Post
#57
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 |
The thing is why do you need to include a house rule for agility. Agiltiy covers Archery Automatics Blades Clubs escape artist exotic mellee and ranged forgery??? gunnery gymnasitcs heavy weapons infiltration locksmith longarms palming pistols throwing weapons unarmed combat Strength includes climbing running swimming lifting crap and base damage for a few skills. To balance attributes a bit you can easily remove a handful of skills from agility and it would still be one of the best attributes in the game give them to strength and make strength at least a semi functional attribute. Reaction, Body, and willpower also suffer a lot in skill drought but I consider there non skill uses much larger than I lift crap and a bit extra damage in a couple forms of combat. Willpower I would consider the suck if it wasn't the core drain resistance stat making it at least a great stat for one archtype. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 18 2007, 02:19 AM
Post
#58
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Don't forget that Strength plays a major role in subdual combat - if a high Strength troll gets ahold of you, you are in bad, bad trouble.
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 18 2007, 03:26 PM
Post
#59
|
|
|
Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Strength does increase damage, but not by that much compared to the necessary investment of points. Nevertheless, melee chars should have no problem doing severe damage with each blow. No need to increase that. Strength is very important for fights on an equal level, where larger numbers of net hits are unlikely. Even more going up against armored targets.
@Sir Killfist: Melee players should take note of their environment. Basic damage can go way up, maximum strength/2 +3 for cybered chars (unarmed) and even higher for others. If you find your DV lacking, compensate. Currently one of my players is frustrated because he is lacking real enemies in close combat (once he manages to reach melee, the fight is over). We use the melee rules as written. I´d still prefer less skills under both agility and intuition, but that would be my only reason to change things around. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 18 2007, 03:37 PM
Post
#60
|
|||
|
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
You missed my point. I'm not about to argue with you about some stats being more important than others. Agility is used for way too much. My point is, irrespective of all those other skills you mentioned, all four physical attributes should contribute to melee combat in some way. I don't care if Agility contributes to too many other skills, I'm just talking about melee combat. If you use Reaction instead of Agility for melee attacks, you won't make Agility a bad stat. It's still be very useful, but Agility with be completely irrelevant in the context of melee combat, and that is bad. Two characters with identical Body, Strength, and Reaction, but one having an Agility of 1 and the other having an Agility of 9 should not be an even match. Currently, the attack roll is Agility's only contribution to melee combat. The fact that Agility is used for too many other skills is a completely different point. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 19 2007, 04:26 AM
Post
#61
|
|||||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 |
Why should all 4 attributes contribute to melee combat. Do all 4 mental stats contribute to your mechanic skills, do all 4 physical stats contribute to your pistols. Why is close combat some strange exception stat where every physical stat should be contributing to it. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jul 19 2007, 04:44 AM
Post
#62
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
That's a good theory. Maybe all guns should have their damage based on strength to represent the fact that a stronger person can hold a bigger gun. Or maybe if you pull the trigger harder then the bullet will shoot harder, just like people who waved their old school nintendo controllers around to make mario jump farther. Or maybe only the most appropriate stat should be used in any given instance. And for melee it would be strength. :P |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 19 2007, 04:50 AM
Post
#63
|
|
|
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I can't help but wonder how many of the people who insist only one or two attributes matter in melee have ever been in a real fight, or gotten much hand to hand training (be with an eastern martial art or western boxing or wrestling), etc, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 19 2007, 05:25 AM
Post
#64
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
Depends if fighting at bars counts as real fighting.
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 19 2007, 07:01 AM
Post
#65
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
Well lets see 5+ years Wu Shu, and my female Philippina/Hawaiian teacher could walk under my punch.
She always said it was not strength but body alignment, she would stand on various body parts, if you body was aligned correctly, the body part held fast. I can still recall the first session where she had opening and closing our hips.... She is very fast, and can do remarkable maneuvers, but there was her teacher a 70+ year old Chinese female that regularly, whipped my teachers butt. So yes I have used what I was taught, I was assaulted in a park late one night by 4 persons, I walked away with some bruising, as for them.... She was right, I did not think about what I was doing, I applied the most correct attack/defense movements/patterns, with little conscious thought. This is a game, that uses abstract concepts/ideas on combat and or melee combat. Is it like anything in RL no, but then I want to play something more enjoyable than RL close combat. :D |
|
|
|
|
Jul 19 2007, 03:34 PM
Post
#66
|
|||
|
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
My theory is, if a task is significantly influenced by an attribute, then that attribute should affect the task in some way. I know, it's crazy. I like that melee combat is affected by Body, Agility, Reaction, Strength, and Intuition. If you feel that Agility has no place in melee combat, then by all means feel free to replace Agility for something else in the attack roll. If you believe that Agility is irrelevant to melee combat, I will not argue with you. To address your other examples, (I apologize in advance for answering a question with a question. I assure you, I will include answers as well.) do you feel like strength should have a large influence on performance with pistols? If so, then it'd recommend some house rules to either flesh out encumbrance or give RC for high strength. I've considered it, but so far haven't really felt like it's that important. Do you feel that Charisma plays a very important role in automotive repair? (unless it's the con test to swindle the customer, but that's not a mechanic skill anymore) If so, then I would suggest some sort of house-rule to involve it in the process. Personally, I do not believe that Charisma has a very large role in the interactions between mechanic and engine block. I think Agility should be included because I think it matters in a fight. I would not like a situation where Body 4, Agility 1, Reaction 4, Strength 4 is an equal match to Body 4, Agility 10, Reaction 4, Strength 4. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 20 2007, 06:30 AM
Post
#67
|
|||||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 |
I have no problem with the theory that if a stat plays a large roll in the capabilities of a skill it should have an effect on that skill. Thing is it most cases in the game it doesn't. And in the case of agility and close combat its not performing a roll in the game it is performing THE roll in the game with others helping a on the side. As for pistols stats that have a large impact on its skill IMO, agility, reflexes, intuition. Strength has a roll but I'd say its different in that its not so much the more strength you have the better you are, but once you have enough to control the gun your good. In the game tough the only stat that has any real contribution on the skill or in how I see a contribution is agility. Reflexes helps your initiative and helps you dodge, but that doesn't have anything to do with pistols. But its the same level of benefit they have in close combat so I guess its a kind of contribution. Intuition being the perception skill helps pistols a bit in other areas under the right circumstances. Mechanic, well no not charisma except in the broadest sense of getting cheaper materials as you pointed out. But Agility, logic, intuition, and willpower to play a significant roll in the success of the skill. In the game its pretty much just logic. Do I think agility matters in a fight sure all things being equal it helps out. Do I think it is far more removed in effect on close combat than strength and or reflexes, well yes. If the system was generally multiple stats to perform a skill I'd be ok with agility being in the mix somehow but not as THE stat. But the base mechanic for most skills is one attribute controls it except when the GM gets creative with penalties. And under that system I think it should be strength. Again a lot of this comes down to how you define strength and agility and they are nebulous terms in most role playing games and in SR there fairly generally defined, leaving lots of room for argument. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jul 20 2007, 01:18 PM
Post
#68
|
|||||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 25-May 07 From: Florianópolis, Brasil Member No.: 11,747 |
Maybe would be realistic to use STR on gun combat. But as a recoil modifier on bigger/meanner guns. That way stronger people can use bigger and powerfull guns better than weaker people. That would include STR attribute on ranged combat and be reallistic on the same time. :D :D :D - But, again, that would result in a constructive comment, and not a funny one. <- (Like this one)
To be real realistic on this one, you would need to use different atribute to diferent styles. For exemple, your would use Reaction for aikidô style of fighting, maybe Agility for jet-kune-do or some styles of kung-fu, and even Strengh for sumo or jiu-jutsu. In my opinion, Agility results on a good "common" choice (and takes away the D&D feel from the game, lol). :wobble: |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jul 20 2007, 01:50 PM
Post
#69
|
|
|
Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Proposed rule: The player gets to choose one FIXED attribute of (REA,AGI,STR) used with his close combat skill. Thats even RAW because the GM can call skill + appropiate attribute instead of standard attribute anyway.
Effect: - Players choose their strongest attribute, higher DP = more damage - Strength is now the best attribute for close-combat-types to have. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 21 2007, 02:59 AM
Post
#70
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
You would be going back to trolls ruling melee again, then. Take a troll, and give him the Exceptional Attribute quality to start out with 11 Strength. Add muscle augmentation to boost it up to 13. Add in a troll's reach, and you're at 14 dice already. Get the Aptitude quality and a skill of 7, a specialization, and 3 dice of adept improved ability, and you're rolling 26 dice, assuming that you're using unarmed combat. If you are using a force: 2 combat axe weapon focus, it goes up to 30 dice (2 more from reach and 2 more from the weapon focus).
It seems too easily abusable to me. Like I said, trolls already rule melee due to their reach and damage soaking ability. Making it easier for them to hit people, too, doesn't make as much sense to me. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 21 2007, 03:39 AM
Post
#71
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i think you meant "add muscle augmentation to boost it up to 15". if not, your math is off by two dice.
it's worth pointing out that a human or elf with this build would be throwing 20 dice on unarmed attacks, or 24 dice on axe attacks. a dwarf or ork would be throwing 23 and 27 dice. so a maxed-out troll gets, at most, six more dice than anyone else. all the rest--the specializations, the weapon foci, the aptitude--kinda cloud that. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 21 2007, 04:19 AM
Post
#72
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
I think those extra two dice come from the specialization. I think that it would have a great effect on the game, but I'm one of those people who think that the strength is more appropriate than agility. But as other people have said again and again it really depends on what exactly you define the attributes as. Striking someone precisely and with graceful movements I see as skill not agility. The agility attribute I see more as flexibility and balance than as precision motor control. This would make the melee combat system flexible enough to represent whatever people see the attributes as how they see their particular character fighting in melee. When the expanded melee rules show up, because we all know they will, I would be interested to see different fighting styles with different maneuvers like in third ed with the different styles being based off of the different attributes. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 21 2007, 04:22 AM
Post
#73
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
Also under the similar circumstances but with agility, and muscle toner the elf would only be 3 dice behind this troll. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 21 2007, 04:30 AM
Post
#74
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 |
Also as the rules are written with an elf who does the same with agility he gets 12 dice from his stats instead of whatever from the troll in strength. So whats worse 12 dice in everything fighting from one stat or 16 dice from one stat for just close combat.
Personally I think the agility monster is much worse. Pick your poison once you have a system where stats add into skills and different races get stat bonuses you will have X race rules Y situation occurring. And with skill caps there is no catching up with skill to compensate for the weaker stat. gah too farkin slow, need to hotsim things i guess. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 21 2007, 04:31 AM
Post
#75
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
I didn't say so (sorry), but I was assuming a char-gen example, so limited by Availability to Rating: 2. Post char-gen, you might as well add a suprathyroid gland to raise Strength to 16.
And the elf would be 4 points behind, not 3 - there's that point of reach. And the elf was previously the most broken example. And even so, the elf also won't be doing nearly as much damage (unless they pick up monowhip for their weapon, but specializations aren't allowed for exotic weapon proficiencies, so that's 2 more dice lost to the troll). The troll with 13 Strength will have a base of 7 damage before factoring in weaponry, bone lacing/augmentation, and/or crititcal/penetrating strike. |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 2nd January 2025 - 02:11 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.