 Dragon challenge, Taking down a dragon, SR4 style |
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 Jul 18 2007, 08:47 PM
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#101
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,924 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502  |
You could reasonably easily make up some dragon AR gloves. Or perhapse an industrial steel grade version of strange devices such as keyboards and mice. Though that would probably get you some penalties.
But yeah the tech is something most dragons would have the underlings do the heavy lifting on. |
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Jul 18 2007, 09:18 PM
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#102
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Dragon-sized holographic keyboards are certainly possible.
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Jul 18 2007, 11:21 PM
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#103
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Of course, the Dragon could just Shapechange into (meta)human form to use AR. |
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Jul 18 2007, 11:28 PM
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#104
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Or "Ride" a technomancer/otaku like Dunkie did. But that may be over-complicating things a bit. :)
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Jul 19 2007, 12:21 AM
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#105
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
You know... 12 million :nuyen: is a lot of money. A lot of money.
You simply need to bribe someone high enough in Ares Aerospace, and in at most four hours, the girders start falling. One dead dragon, wiped out by the "orbital option" thanks to a lovely "Live fire systems test." The dragon can bring in anyone he wants. His spirits can't reach the satellites in LEO, and because he's so backwards he dosen't have his lair wired, he completely discounts the possibility of a Thor shot. Game, set, and match. |
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Jul 19 2007, 01:24 AM
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#106
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,924 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
Right. I'm sure Ares wouldn't have any problems fireing some Thor shots into a sovergn nation, llike Azlan, or maybe Japan. Nobody would care about that. Its not like that would start a corporate war or anything. I'm sure since 12 million will get you a couple Thor shots, and every AAA corporation has billions of nuyen floating around, that Tokyo is used to the things. They're just like the weather. "Partly cloudy with a chance of Thor shots"
EDIT: Ok that was a little flamey. And I suppose there are spots, like the desert wars theater, where you could probably drop the thing. And I suppose if you could convince them it's really worth it maybe a corp/country would drop something in their own territory. Though I think they'd have a strong strong strong tendency to leave dragons that aren't causeing them problems alone. Also I know you said it was a bribe, but I stand by my "if 12 million gets you thor shots they would come down like the weather" I'm guessing there are a number of layers of security involved, meaning it would take a whole lotta bribes, and I doubt the people involved could deny that they actually pushed the button to make the stuff happen. This isn't like an ares alpha falling of the back of the truck. |
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Jul 19 2007, 01:40 AM
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#107
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Exactly. And since the run easily pays more than 12 million nuyen to geek a hermit recluse dragon no one has ever heard of, I'm sure it's well worth fencing every piece of equipment the team owns in order to buy said Thor shots.
Please: No nukes, no Thor shots, no armies, no bunker-busting-bomb-dropping-stealth-fighter-jets...and no mecha. |
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Jul 19 2007, 01:53 AM
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#108
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Clean Element isn't going to give you what you're looking for. It can remove impurities, but it can't create anything. It might remove CO, CO2, etc, but it's not going to add any O2. The dragon is going to have to have an air supply from somewhere. And the point of the flames isn't to smoke him out, it's to burn up all the oxygen in the complex. Even if clean element did what you seem to want it to, it's a permanent spell, which means a dragon isn't going to have them just sitting around all the time. |
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Jul 19 2007, 01:56 AM
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#109
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Ok, for a dragon killer character... here ya go:
Chargen [ Spoiler ] Advanced with money/karma/stuff [ Spoiler ] Assuming he can walk into the dragon lair, find the dragon in a room, and then combat begins... For initiative he gets his 9 dice vs the dragons 16. Spend an edge to go first. I'll assume the bow is ready and fire. Looking at 21 dice(9 Skill + 7 agility + 3 IA + 2 SL) versus its 8 reaction. It'll get maybe 3 successes. I'll likely get 7. Use an edge to reroll my failures, And I'll probably get 4 more, total of 11 vs 3. 8 net hits. Base damage on the bow is 17P + 8 = 25P. 17P exceeds 8 hardened armor, so resolve as normal. Dragon has 16 armor (8 hardened + 8 mystic). Plus its 15 body, total of 31 dice. Average around 10 successes, dropping actual damage down to 15P. Its P track is 8 + (15/2=7) = 15blocks. 15P to 15blocks = dead dragon. Oh, and then the drug hits, 8P vs 15 body, 5 successes on average. 3 power get through, dragons at -2 for all dicepools (and as a bonus tells me the truth. |
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Jul 19 2007, 02:03 AM
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#110
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,924 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
Um the dragon has edge too. It'll still go first.
And without counterspelling going first is going last if these guys are all within AOE range of each other. (again it has edge to spend on the spell) |
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Jul 19 2007, 02:10 AM
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#111
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
We get a team? Thats just one guy. Give him a dedicated counterspeller, someone as a distraction so when the dragon "goes first" he doesn't take out your big gun, and someone else, maybe with a bunch of drones or something.
My contribution to a "dragon killer" team, was a troll who can almost put an arrow through a citymaster. |
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Jul 19 2007, 02:21 AM
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#112
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Mysic Armor does not "stack" with hardened armor. The Dragon gets only 8 armor dice.
-Frank |
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Jul 19 2007, 02:29 AM
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#113
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,924 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
Of course if the dragon has a potent sustaining focus his actual armor will probably be higher than 14.
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Jul 19 2007, 02:31 AM
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#114
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Whoa whoa whoa. Where did "hermit recluse dragon no one has ever heard of" come from? I'm fairly certain I did mention that the dragon did have reinforcements coming, and that he wasn't going to be out of contact.
I'm limiting the challenge to runners and dragon only, simply for simplicity. That doesn't mean that either runners or dragon are not capable of dragging in one heck of a lot of outside support. Reading through the list now, for answering. |
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Jul 19 2007, 02:33 AM
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#115
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Which will last precisely until the Staticmancer takes a complex action to move the Mana Static already cast into an area which includes the dragon - at which point all of the Dragon's sustained spells, foci, quickened spells, and bound spirits mean precisely dick. -Frank |
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Jul 19 2007, 02:55 AM
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#116
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
You're taking my comment out of context, it helps to read the whole thread (and to have a sense of humor). :D My point was that it wouldn't be profitable for the team to spend 12 million nuyen to kill a dragon that didn't seem to be too terribly important of a figure. If the target isn't terribly important, there wouldn't be anyone willing pay 12 million nuyen for his assassination. It's not like the dragon is the first lady or anything. |
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Jul 19 2007, 02:58 AM
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#117
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
That's awesome, that should protect against any fiber optic remote casting too. |
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Jul 19 2007, 03:02 AM
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#118
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,924 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
Uh, how are you moving an already cast mana static?
Granted mana static is effective against dragons. On the other hand if the PCs are landing hits the dragon is probalby screwed anyway. In fact if the GM decides that dragon powers don't vanish in mana static (reasonable) it might end up hurting the PCs because those dragon abilities are pretty potent, and in the balance might be better than what the PCs have afterwards. Still nobody is arguing against the point that if six PCs at the described power level are in a straight up fight with a dragon they win. It's all about schenanigans getting to that point. |
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Jul 19 2007, 03:31 AM
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#119
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
You're right. Mystic armor simply stacks with worn armor, and hardened armor is a power. |
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Jul 19 2007, 03:33 AM
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#120
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Ah, here's what started it (sorry, sunnyside):
Clarifying this right now -- no: it's not a ludite and reclusive. It's in its lair because that's where I'm choosing to set this challenge. It chooses not to have its lair wired because it knows enough to know what it doesn't know -- and thus what everyone else can use against it. There's nothing saying it doesn't have other centres of operation, which might well be wired. Btw -- since I'm not using karma, I'm using a bp --> nuyen translation from chargen to buy contacts: ie. its contacts are coming from its budget. The Matrix is a major point of vulnerability. Without someone on-site to monitor it 24/7 -- which is outside the scope of this challenge, because that would also allow others on-site, and we're keeping this to a runners v. dragon only scenario -- it's worse than useless from a defensive pov. However, it's not a luddite. (There's nothing in the description that requires it.) It does have tech-related Knowledge skills. Tech may come up -- just not the kind of tech which inherently creates a vulnerability to its lair. The rule of thumb is guided by intelligence: tech that is in place is not electronics or similar that the dragon expects to have to use personally, and consequently not tech that is readily identifiable as an obvious point of vulnerability. On the other hand, something like (for example) a telescope requires no tech awareness to use it. Consider what I said here carefully: because there's things here you could use against it.
I'd noticed that, also its Charisma rating. Consequently its social network isn't taking the same form as that of most runners. Perhaps another reason it doesn't care for having a decker on-site in its lair?
I'm not giving it any qualities, negative or positive: which means it's not incompetent with tech. The example in the book is what we have in common. In a campaign, I'd adapt it differently, very differently in fact: but this isn't a campaign. For this purpose, I'm not interested in what is possible beyond the template: because the original point under contention is that a basic, non-great dragon can be taken out easily even when it's being played intelligently: and the beginning of intelligent play means that it won't blindly charge out and attack (Ã la D&D dragons). The clear template (not example) is what allows us to test the challenge while working on a known basis. Absolutely last statement on this: I'm using a book-strict interpretation, and where there is any doubt or looseness whatsoever about things that are book-specified, I'm using the weaker interpretation. It is, however, a high-end western dragon entirely within the book specifications. The question of the realism of runners being able to order a Thor shot has already been discussed. I'll add in here that -- having Knowledge of the realities of the Sixth World -- it might perhaps be to the dragon's interest to learn about those kinds of attempts to bribe. Remember: the greater the number of persons involved in the chain, the greater the chance of a glitch -- which means it reaches people other than those the runners want to hear about it. (I miss the SR3 table for this, but glitches work well enough.) Tarantula and sunnyside have answered each other. @ Frank Trollman:
Yes. Normally the only value of the base armour is to determine what is stun and what is physical. For hardened armour, stun becomes no damage whatsoever. @ Buster:
You'll notice I did, and that the image didn't originate with you. (You can decide for yourself whether I do have that sense of humour.) But the plans still seemed to be focusing around that assumption, so I figured I should cut it off here at least, even if I didn't manage to nip it at the pass.
Well, I'd agree with you, but for the purpose of this challenge it's entirely up to you guys how you choose to play the runners. @ Fortune:
Metahuman form is not an innate power for non-greats. @ sunnyside:
After this scenario is complete, I just might test you on that. ;) (Note: the dragon also gets preparation time.) I liked War Games :) |
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Jul 19 2007, 04:02 AM
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#121
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
to my knowledge, no one has said the dragon is hard to kill if it uses it's intelligence yet. what we've all been saying is that a dragon is not hard to kill *unless* you use it's intelligence.
that being said, just hack the IRS and make it look like the dragon hasn't payed it's taxes. i hypothesize that within 24 hours, the dragon will choose suicide :D |
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Jul 19 2007, 04:04 AM
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#122
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Alternately, just hack the THOR launcher yourself, and do it that way.
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Jul 19 2007, 04:07 AM
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#123
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Ok, another quick question, considering that you've only given your dragon 2 million :nuyen:, I'll repeat my question again, what damage code are you willing to give my 6 million :nuyen: worth of explosives?
Basically I'm questioning how hardened a lair that has a budget limit of 2 million :nuyen: is really going to be when compared to 6 million :nuyen: worth of resources. (Although I really like the idea of a NOVA-hot Decker team hacking their way into control of some missiles for the win.) |
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Jul 19 2007, 04:16 AM
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#124
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
You have the same books I do. What results do you get? *laugh* and those nova-hot deckers plan to spend the rest of their lives underground afterwards -- because how many governments and corporations will be after them in force? Looks like we have two PCs up for discussion, as well as several different team concepts. Feedback? |
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Jul 19 2007, 04:29 AM
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#125
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
You get the best bang for the buck with commercial. Which gives you 60 tones of explosives for a total blast of a measly 735 damage. Which will nicely take care of blast doors and such, per RAW, within 300 meters or so. |
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