 Dragon challenge, Taking down a dragon, SR4 style |
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 Jul 19 2007, 07:27 AM
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#151
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689  |
If the group decides they want the mega-negotiating adept, sure, go ahead. You just have to get him in the door -- through those blast doors. (Sorry, no speakerphones available.)
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Jul 19 2007, 10:28 AM
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#152
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I thought you were a little low the last time you posted about Initiation. The cost per Grade is 10 + (3 x new Grade). Thus a base Karma cost of 13, 16, 19, 22, 25, etc. A 20% discount would give us costs of 11, 13, 16, 18, 20, etc. A 40% discount would result in Karma costs of 8, 10, 12, 14, 15, and so on. |
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Jul 19 2007, 11:42 AM
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#153
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
LOL. True story in recent news: after a 5 hour standoff, police fire tear gas grenades and storm the house to find no one is home. http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp...sdate=7/13/2007 |
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Jul 19 2007, 12:37 PM
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#154
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Target Group: Members Posts: 62 Joined: 26-September 02 Member No.: 3,323 |
I'm sorry, I think this is pretty much a pointless exercise but this last post just made me go over the edge. So, we have a dragon that doesn't come out of this hole in the ground, doesn't do anything and doesn't even communicate with the outside world? (No speakers, no wifi, etc) Is that right? Why do we even want to kill it? It is already as good as dead! It's even buried already! You just go back to your employer and tell him that the dragon is dead, it's not like anyone will be able to tell the difference! |
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Jul 19 2007, 12:44 PM
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#155
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Exactly my point too, but Talia spazzed when I joked that no one would pay big money to assassinate a "hermit recluse dragon no one has ever heard of", but she never said how a dragon who doesn't come out, never talks to anyone, and doesn't do anything at all but hide in his hole is a VIP by any stretch of the imagination.
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Jul 19 2007, 01:55 PM
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#156
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
:silly: S :silly: P :silly: A :silly: Z :silly: Z :silly: I :silly: N :silly: G :silly: (just for you, Buster!) Claim was made, in the other linked thread, that a dragon was easily killable. Thus I'm giving a dragon here, for the killing -- if you can. Basically, I'm putting that claim to the test. There's been some suggestion that neither dragon nor runner would wish to fight on other than their own terms: ie. the importance of tactics. There's also been people who've argued repeatedly that the killing is so straightforward and obvious that it really shouldn't have to be played out in actual combat turns. Find whatever motivation you like. Who knows: maybe you want its hide for material components? And since when did a lack of specific motivation for some collateral killing stop a group of runners anyway? (Oh wait ... is that only when the runners know that what they're killing can't really hurt them?)
She never said those things either. She just said that's it's not doing that in the short-term here and now: ie. in the 24 hours before either the runners or the dragon are dead. And btw -- why does everyone assume that there can be only one possible way to communicate with and even manage a network? |
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Jul 19 2007, 02:30 PM
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#157
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
That's a bit high, because fractions generally round in your favor in SR4. So 13 with a 20% discount is actually only 10. The exact quote is:
It is in fact the reduction which is rounded up, not the cost. This is a fairly consistent rule throughout SR4 - fractions round in "your" favor. When you swing a sword and have an odd strength the damage rounds up; when you get hit by a sword and have an odd Body your damage track rounds up.
The only thing in the game which rounds against you is Magic Loss from Essence Loss. And that's a legacy from previous editions when the default rules were that fractions rounded against you. But yes, the base values are 13, 16, 19... and not 13, 14, 15... So the final values should be: 1: 13 * .6 = 7.8 = 7 2: 16 * .6 = 9.6 = 9 3: 19 * .6 = 11.4 = 11 4: 22 * .6 = 13.2 = 13 5: 25 * .6 = 15 = 15 Karma: 55 -Frank |
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Jul 19 2007, 03:00 PM
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#158
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Target Group: Members Posts: 62 Joined: 26-September 02 Member No.: 3,323 |
On a slightly more serious note: Team consists of five Initiate Magicians with very good Summoning, Binding and Counterspelling. Invoking and Shielding are a must. Other than that just try to make them overall good magicians. Preferably Elves of any tradition that uses Charisma for Drain and has access to Spirits of Man. Most of the mages should have the Shape Earth and Astral Static spells. Plus the usual stuff. The sixth team member is a rigger, who spent some time as an Army Engineer in a military of your choice. He will bring a small army of drones including stuff like the Kodiak and maybe some other heavy duty construction drones. The mages summon/bind all the spirits they can. The dragon might be able to get bigger spirits but we'll have more. The rigger brings combat drones, the aforementioned engineering drones and a couple of jammers just in case the dragon decides to call for help on his cellphone. I'm assuming that getting to the door of the lair isn't a significant problem. From the general gist of the comments so far Talia seems to want to make problems for us inside the lair, not fifty miles away. Heck, we might just be the Pizza Delivery guys for all the dragon knows! So we reach the dragons door, jam any com to the outside world (not that it seems to have any) and use our engineering drones to start dumping a couple of tons of cement on top of the reinforced doors. Now we have all the time in the world to do our thing. The Dragon can't get out and can't call out. It can try to get out astrally, sure. But no matter how high his Charisma might be he won't have more spirits on call than our five elven mages. If he tries an astral breakout our side has the advantages of numbers and metamagic (particularly Shielding and Invoking, possibly others). If things get bad for us--doubtful, IMHO--we can simply fall back on Astral Static, counterspelling and Magical Guard (if available). Our mages can also cross-heal if any one of them gets badly hit. Given all this I'll assume that we can contain any astral breakouts. Which means that the dragon is totally isolated. Now our rigger/engineer takes his time and drills some holes into the lair. I don't care if ti takes six months, the dragon ain't going nowhere! With a nice little hole we can then send in whatever we want: Seven-7, napalm, olive oil, cyanide, Polonium, foam explosive. Eventually we will find something the Dragon can't protect against and it will die. Eventually it'll run out of something. Air, food, water, ritual materials to bind more spirits, whatever and we will kill it. *** AFAIK the only "rule" of this thought experiment I've broken is the 24h rule. I did it on purpose. After all if this dragon never gets out anyway so we can0t hit him far away from his lair, why shouldn't we take advantage of it? And it's not like anyone is going to miss him... On another note: You will forgive me Talia but this hole exercise is skewed. Why should the runners be dumb enough to go into the lair after it? Most assassinations (whether of Dragons or humans) will take advantages of the mark's vulnerabilities. This dragon has none. It doesn't ever leave, no one ever enters, nothing, not even email apparently ever gets in. Where does it get food? Personally I feel that a better test on the "killability" of dragons in SR4 would be to have the runners more or less "stumble" upon the dragon. They're out doing something else (so they're loaded for bear but not "loaded for Dragon") when they bump into it and someone starts shooting/manabolting. Then we see if a "normal" team of runners can kill a Dragon or not. *** I also want to add that I think that the canonic stats on dragons are weak. Even more so for Great Dragons. I fail to see how Ghostwalker could conquer a city against a modern military (much less six!) even if he is a grade twenty initiate and has every metamagic and spell in the books. Without some GM handwaving and stuff I just don't think the numbers add up. If Fanpro (now Catalyst) wants Dragons to be so big and scary they should give them better numbers or else none at all. As has been said before:
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Jul 19 2007, 03:06 PM
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#159
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
It's been stated several times that reinforcements are a possibility. Hanging around for 6 months is probably a bad idea. It's also never been said that nobody will miss him, just that for the time being he doesn't want to come out because he knows there's a team of prime runners out to kill him. |
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Jul 19 2007, 03:14 PM
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#160
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Target Group: Members Posts: 62 Joined: 26-September 02 Member No.: 3,323 |
You are not giving us a dragon for the killing. You are giving us a lair to break into with a nasty boss fight at the end. Like many people have said two million worth of security would make even a cripple in a wheelchair (probably a rocket-boosted, laser-armed wheelchair) pretty dangerous. If you just want a fight with a dragon remove the lair. Pick a neutral environment, of your choice. Give both sides a reason to come prepared for a tough fight but with no specific details. Then you'll see. either the Dragon dies or it doesn't. But here you're not making the runners fight the Dragon, you're making the runners fight two million nuyen worth of drones, spirits, traps, whatever. It's just a dungeon with a dragon at the end. Just say the runners are in the Yucatan jungle and come across a Feathered Serpent working for the other side (there are Feathered Serpents working for both the Azzies--Dzitbalchén [sp]--and the rebels--Pobre and Soñador). There. A nice fight with a Dragon in the steaming Yucatan jungle with toxic spirits thrown in, what more could any shadowrunner want? Edit:
And how does it know that? All we know is that it's a Western Dragon. Period. We have almost no other information yet it even knows the day we're coming for it? What sort of idiots are these runners (worth millions of nuyen) supposed to be? We sent him a greeting card? "Mr Unknown Dragon we are going to kill you next Tuesday, is that okay with you? RSVP" |
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Jul 19 2007, 03:15 PM
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#161
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
Ghostwalker shouldn't have ever conquered Denver by brute force at all, no matter what SR-edition we're talking. That was rather one of the low points of SR, and I hope that the authors don't repeat it anytime soon. |
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Jul 19 2007, 03:17 PM
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#162
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I sort of agree. Although frankly until YotC there wasn't any Great Dragon action which was inconsistent with their stat lines. Sirrurg could conquer Brasil and Aden could torch Tehran because they led armies and struck from darkness. Neither one of them reared up Godzilla and stomped on shit for days at a time while their enemies brought reinforcements to bear on them. YotC had a bunch of stupid crap in it - and Ghostwalker's rampage was about the dumbest part of it. Aztechnology had Ghostwalker stopped on the board - their is simply no way he could have pulled that crap and lived, let alone won. -Frank |
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Jul 19 2007, 03:24 PM
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#163
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
LOL! :D |
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Jul 19 2007, 03:28 PM
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#164
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
I wish great dragons were not statted either. I wish many things wrt SR4. Most of my wishes are not going to come true.
No GM-created environment can be truly neutral.
Then again, the dragon isn't only fighting the runners, it's also fighting twelve million nuyen worth of their drones, spirits, traps, whatever.
Tackling the runners before that point would have to involve indirect resources: and that brings in the army v. army issue we're trying to avoid here. The 24 hours actually starts before arrival at the door, however: because it is included specifically and solely to allow for planning and "pre" set-up. I also note that the dragon may also choose to act at any point after you arrive at the door. ("Acting" does not necessarily require emergence from the lair.) Odds are fairly good that the dragon knows you aren't the Pizza Delivery guys :)
I'd like to run this scenario at some future point -- if I could be sure that the knowledge of the scenario doesn't slip into metagaming. The easiest way to do that would be to take the standard templates, up them a few karma, and seriously limit equipment. Of course, you can already anticipate what replies I would receive then about GM unfairness! |
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Jul 19 2007, 03:31 PM
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#165
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Target Group: Members Posts: 62 Joined: 26-September 02 Member No.: 3,323 |
I agree with the bit about Hualpa, he had company of a bunch of other dragons (including two other Greats) and a whole rebel army but from what I recall about Tehran Aden did it all by him/herself too. I don't remember any mentions of an army helping out.
But Ghostwalker, well, that's just dumb. everything else, I can probably live with. |
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Jul 19 2007, 03:36 PM
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#166
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Actually, Aden probably didn't do it completely on his own.
In the background, never visible in the city proper, was the way of neutralising the military forces -- we know how many methods exist for that, many of which don't even involve combat! One of the simplest ways, in this case, might simply have been to get a mercenary force to decoy the troops elsewhere. What's left is only citizenry with nothing more potent than SMGs. Great dragons shrug those off. |
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Jul 19 2007, 04:21 PM
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#167
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,483 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
Ok for the super face. Dragons typically use someone else to communicate with the outside world. The whole dragonspeech problem.
So your awsome faciness would get lost in the translation. "Hey boss this elf says that you should go outside and take a nap. I think it's a really good idea. I'd like to join you if that's OK." (dragon summons a spirit of man to slap their lacky upside the head) --------------- What's this ghostwalker crap? I didn't get the actual book, but when I got up to speed on the SR4 timeline it make it look like the dragon went on a little rampage, than it met with the draco foundation, and then it got voted in by denver to lead the place. So I thought it was more of a mater that the dragon was a good face or had really good connections (or was actually big D whatever). They had it fight off armies? ----------------------------------------- As for the runners killing the dragon in straight up combat that should be pretty easy. Just have the classic infinite open plain put the dragon in the middle and put the runners elsewhere, put the spirits "on call" roll for initiative. The dragons first move will could drop one of the runners (or I guess bring in spirits). But if they're fanned out beyond AOE range the other five will be standing. Unless there is some funky evasion thing I don't know about there are a whole range of builds that are capable of rapidly killing off the dragon. Such as the earlier posted ones. -------------------------------------- Oh and on mystic armor. The game designers made a poor choice when it came to naming it. They used the same term for a critter power and an adept power that are different. This is what the dragon has Mystic Armor Type: M • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always Critters with Mystic Armor have natural protection from astral attacks. Apply the critter’s Mystic Armor rating against any astral attacks that strike it. Some critters may also have hardened Mystic Armor (if they also have the Hardened Armor power). |
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Jul 19 2007, 04:27 PM
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#168
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
Aden also trashed Tehran fairly early on in the awakening, iirc.
so basically, you're looking at, say, 50-60 years difference in the technology level, which means that the dragon can just splatter things a lot easier, and attacks would be a lot more likely to just bounce off. |
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Jul 19 2007, 05:00 PM
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#169
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Target Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 16-July 07 Member No.: 12,274 |
Actually, the dragon can comprehend spoken speech just fine. The only real trick is getting the face close enough to begin the negotiations. The Dragon would be able to then communicate telepathically to the Face directly (at least that's how I understand the RAW) |
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Jul 19 2007, 05:08 PM
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#170
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I'd rules that kinesics doesn't work on a dragon. The body language gulf is too wide.
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Jul 19 2007, 05:20 PM
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#171
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Ahh, bonus! Thanks. |
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Jul 19 2007, 05:45 PM
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#172
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Target Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 16-July 07 Member No.: 12,274 |
I know it sounds like I'm contradicting you at every turn, James, but I'm really not. Just trying to look at it from all angles lol Anyways, I think this would mostly depend on the Dragons level of communication with humans. If we're dealing with a Ghostwalker (assuming he's just not Dunk ver 2.0) and/or "feral" dragon, then Kinesics would most definently not help. But if we're dealing witha Lofwyr/Dunk level "manipulator" then the subtle nuances of body might not be lost on him. However, the Dragon might be smart enough to just ignore (resist?) it as well. Needless, the Super Face plan depends on a lot more "What if..." then I would personally trust. |
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Jul 19 2007, 06:39 PM
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#173
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,483 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
Again if the superface has to get into dragonspeech it's back to the moot point since once you have the dragon in your sights there are lots of ways to take it down.
The primary issue is getting into combat with the thing with enough people simultaniously that you still have a char or two who can kill it after it's initial attack. On the explosives. I'd actually think that a surface detonation would probably result in a collapse of the early parts of the cave. Granted now you may have sealed it in. But the reinforcements thing works against you now. So the multi bulldog thing isn't going to work for you. As every time you make a blast hole it would just get filled in. And even a megablast through rock wouldn't be that impressive. Even if you got the double value and half armor mods for the explosive you'd still have ~1800 DV losing maybe 7DV per 10CM so 72 would be lost per meter. So your blast would only affect things 30 meters down. You'd have to rely on there not being enough stuff between you and the dragon to prevent an initial blast from killing it directly on the first go. Which could work, but as you mentioned that requires getting things set up without so much as a single spirit getting one electrical zap at your stuff before you're done setting it all up. |
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Jul 19 2007, 06:52 PM
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#174
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Remember that dragons can fly, so expect to have to be able to get to the top of really tall vertical shafts with sheer walls. Or maybe even walls covered in a waterfall of acid, monowire, or something else you don't want to climb on.
Flight is pretty easy to get, but if you forget you're stuck at the bottom of a tunnel while some magesight goggles blast you into oblivion. |
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Jul 19 2007, 07:00 PM
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#175
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,483 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
Actually OP could you say what the entrance to the lair is like? I've been assuming a cliff or at least up on a mountain, others are assuming it's on the ground. Still others assume they can get to the entrance without impediment.
Personally I would think the approach would be a dangeours time. Because you're dealing with something that could easily have whipped up a force 12 unbound spirit and napped off the stun before the party arrived. Since many spirit attacks are LOS it means that it could be anywhere outside, possibly some distance from the lair, possibly waiting to be called into attack. There is a huge potential for a surprise attack from this thing. Which could trash a vehicle or PC on the first hit. |
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