 Dragon challenge, Taking down a dragon, SR4 style |
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 Jul 20 2007, 12:52 AM
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#201
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689  |
Wow, lots here, and it's not things that can be rushed. I'll be back in a couple of hours, post some answers then.
In the meantime, it looks as though there are at least half a dozen potential spinoffs, if people want to open those. (Anyone up for an SR4 system v. d20 thread? I don't think we've done that before for SR4 specifically -- and the new Edge/HoG rules should make that discussion much more interesting.) |
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Jul 20 2007, 01:33 AM
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#202
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
Why do we even need to compare both systems? They are good for whatever they are intended to do, and all we might accomplish is to call anybody else a powergamer, a hack-n-slayer, a min-maxer and all those other unneccessary things.
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Jul 20 2007, 01:42 AM
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#203
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Oo oo, let's start THAT argument again! I'll go first: <ahem> You munchkin! Ok now you spawn at least three more threads so we can discuss it. |
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Jul 20 2007, 02:13 AM
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#204
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
It's easy to frame questions in the form of events. For example, "What would someone see if they walked into that room?" Remember that the Divining power isn't a Magic 8 Ball, it can give you visions and images as well as yes/no/true/false answers. You have a good point about needing to assense the target or have a material link. However, I would think that in order to get a complete reading about the bunker it would be a matter of "walking the divination" one step at a time. There's no limit to the number of times you can use Divining and there's no drain. Start with "What would someone see if they got passed that blast door?" After you get an image of the room beyond, ask "What would someone see if they went through that door on the other side of the room?". And so on until a complete map was made. From there you would drill down on the details. "What would happen if someone were to open that door?" "What would happen if I was to walk into the middle of that room?" "What would happen if someone shot a gun in that room?" And so on until all the defenses were mapped. Of course, this is assuming you are getting enough successes with your Divining rolls. If you roll badly (and the GM should roll these in secret), you may get a lot of random frightened facial expressions, visions of light switches, and other useless noise. Divining is wicked powerful. After some practice with Divining, you could be emperor of the galaxy one day... |
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Jul 20 2007, 02:24 AM
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#205
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
No, never useless noise. The truly evil GM responds to such attempts at cheese by having the vision show them exactly what's on the other side of the door, but symbolicly. And you make sure all of the symbols translate to possible things inside the room.
You give them a picture of a room that looks nothing like the room they're asking about but can be metaphorically translated into the other room. And whatever you do, you never give them an exact picture of the room. Divining doesn't do that. |
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Jul 20 2007, 02:40 AM
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#206
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Again, I throw my troll archer for your alternate scenarios. He can put arrows through a limo (also, only great dragons can go human form). And he can drop the dragon on average in one hit. Same with the Mr. Pibb dragon. (I think, didn't run it against the eastern dragon stats, but I'm assuming they're pretty much the same.)
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Jul 20 2007, 02:46 AM
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#207
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Yes, a low success roll gives you cryptic noise. You only get misleading or incorrect information if you glitch the roll. Even if the carpet is a different color or the drapes aren't completely wrong or you see a crossbow instead of a gun turret, you'll still get a good map of the complex and know the defenses with high enough rolls. It's not "cheese" Jimmy, that's how Divining works, feel free to read the description again. By the way Jimmy, in the future try not to be such a troll. The forums will be a better place for it. Talia, can you lend me your spazzing banner because I'm totally going to spaz on this guy. |
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Jul 20 2007, 02:57 AM
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#208
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
So lets see here your example: "What would someone see if they got passed that blast door?" (First we will presume that you somehow know what that blast door is). Comapre it to the divination table Vague (Are my old enemies catching up to me) theshold 1 General (Will I get hurt if I go on this next shadowrun) threshold 2 Specific (Will Mr. Johnson take a bribe from Yakashima) threshold 3 Very Specific (Is Mr. Johnson picking up his bribe this evening) theshold 4 I honestly would say your question is very specific, though could be talked into being nice and called is specific. So threshold of 3 Now if you want to be very nitpicking and mean (though I wouldnt here)
Well nitpick hat on... All divination are at -2 dice pool.... since it is an action.... though I would say in spirit that is all actions SAVE for the divination. Anyways back to actual rulings. I would be very strongly pressed to rule that what you SEE is personal details / history. Now "If I go through these blastdoors would I be in a room or a hallway" would be a valid question about an event (going through the doors). Also note technically this example the subject would be the one walking through the doors so no need to even have link to dragon. But we will over look that and go with your question: "What would someone see if they got passed that blast door?" Ok: One net hit = cryptic reply containg underlying truth Two net hits = Answer is mildly helpful Three or more = achieve approximate level of detailed desired. So statistically you are looking at needing 6 hits or 18 dice (24 actually just trading in) No listed power or ware adds dice to awakened skills (arcana) so max here is 7. The best natural maximum for logic is 9 (10 with quality) would make the best augment logic 15. So maximum dice pool for Divination (ro players, sprits with power are seperate discussion but each divination would be a service with drain, cost, etc) 22. 22 is enough statistically to get an answer close to what you want (for atleast the first divination). Well since you didnt define someone, we will presume Joe Averageman. "You have a vague impression of the doors you have seen photos of (how you got the doors for the question), you then slide through them with the distinct impression of a solid thump behind you of massive vault closing. Your vision is filled with inky blackness with the occasional flickering of light seen in the corners of your vision." (Joe Averageman does have vision enchancements. Dragon aint expecting anyone, lights off in the mantrap) Would be the exact answer I would give you on your roll since it is clearly abusing the intent:
It is very clear what the intent is. Is the dragon home today... would be a very good question before hitting his lair. Is the dragon going toleave today would also be a good question. A million divination to map out the lair is an abuse and will be treated as such and the core rules do NOT support it. but any way you stretch it, you arent mapping out anybody home with divination! Edit: fixed quote code, and also refernce as mentioned it is even worse then the above, as the maxium logic is 10 WITH augmentation.... so maximum divination pool of 17 (+6 for edge occasionally) |
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Jul 20 2007, 03:03 AM
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#209
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
All dragons are magicians and know 'most spells' Not hard to assume shapechange is one of those... Now that body within two of yours hurts... But a very buff troll / ork is possible.... Nor is it hard to belive dragons dont have a verision that allows to go to a smaller body rating. (I belive the main reason for that spell is to prevent people from shapeshifting into LARGER body creatures to become soak monsters (or just behomeths). I certainly see nothing wrong with a Shape Dragon to Human SPELL that works around the body limitiations, and think it would be fairly common among the normal (aint nothing lesser about them) dragons. |
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Jul 20 2007, 03:04 AM
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#210
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
That's pretty reasonable, he's great for either scenario. He is challenged by the fact that the dragon is going to probably go first in either scenario. In the robbery there is also the problem where being "the troll who shoots rebar through things" makes it quite likely the mob can track you down. In the sabotage, there is the problem that the troll archer isn't super good at messing up a soda plant. His attacks, while impressive, are kind of retail. So bottom line: he needs someone to pull overwatch to delay the dragon until you fire the black arrow. Further, you need someone to clean up after you (for the first mission), and someone to pull the heavy demo duty in the second. But he's a solid first man. If he survives the dragon's initial mana blast, he can kill the dragon as soon as his turn comes around. Also, he can run fast and is stealthy and athletic enough to get into either facility. -Frank |
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Jul 20 2007, 03:07 AM
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#211
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
just to nitpick, the largest natural logic a player will get is 7. the augmented max is 10.
so that arcana dicepool drops to a 'mere' 17, though of course you can always spend edge. |
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Jul 20 2007, 03:15 AM
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#212
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367 |
But wouldn't bioware count for a divination test?
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Jul 20 2007, 03:21 AM
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#213
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Sure, in fact bioware (or magic) is the only way to get ( Logic 10 ) in the first place.
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Jul 20 2007, 03:26 AM
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#214
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
I suggest you might want to take you own advise: Once again:
What you see if a personal detail! You never will get hard facts! If your question was allowed: (ignoring the third point above) 3+ hits: You have visions of the entrance to a castle of old mighty porticulis at each end, spear thrusting through the walls and great gouts of flaming oil pouring from above. The weight of great despair and anguish fall over you. The room seems tiny as you try to avoid the thursting spears, flying arrrows, and gouts of fire, yet the far end seem ever so distant under these perils. It catches you by no surprise when the floor drops away to reveal huge teeth with bodies impaled upon them. Somehow in the end you reach the far doors only to bang on them in frustration as nothing you can do budges them, they seem to be made from the very stone of the mountain. As you finally subcumb the heavens open up and you see your gloating enemy above you. [ Spoiler ] A very good and information filled 'vision' of what you would see if you went through the doors and would certainly require 3+ net hits on the roll, but hardly what would allow you to map out the lair and even trying to guage the lair this way those +1 thresholds are going to add up fast. Edit: Fixed quotes dang I never can type the quote code correctly |
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Jul 20 2007, 03:34 AM
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#215
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Yeah stupid mental slip to SR3.. You stupid misread on the meta-human chart, read the augmented maximum as being the natural maximum.... thought the number seemed a little high. |
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Jul 20 2007, 03:35 AM
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#216
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
"Regardless of the number of hits achieved, the gamemaster should adjust the answer to be as specific or vague as suits the story and to maintain drama." Also, "what would he see?" may be a valid question in your mind, but that doesn't make it something that's actually related to events. If you're the GM, go for it. If not, I wouldn't count on it. Also, where are you getting your meterial link to the room in the dragon's lair? You're obviously not assensing it or it wouldn't matter. You might trick a slow-witted GM into believing that your question is actually about the person, but since it's blatantly requesting information about aplace I wouldn't fall for it. Spaz away and make troll accusations if it makes you feel better. I'd rather discuss the subject at hand. |
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Jul 20 2007, 03:40 AM
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#217
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Actually, I'm a little fuzzy on the new rules, is this a correct build? Logic 6 (natural) Exceptional Attribute = Logic 7 Cerebral Booster 3 = Logic 10 Increased Mental Attribute spell force 15 = Logic 15 Is that the best Logic you can get? Is that the only way you can get Logic 15? |
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Jul 20 2007, 03:41 AM
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#218
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
That's fine, just don't start any trollishness. (no offense Frank :D ) |
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Jul 20 2007, 03:42 AM
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#219
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
No. Both Increase Logic and the Cerebral Booster add up against the augmented maximum. The only way to get a Logic 15 is to summn a Force 15 Spirit. -Frank |
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Jul 20 2007, 03:45 AM
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#220
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Ah nuts. My build collapses under the weight of its own ambition.
A Divining focus would be great, but they don't exist so no help there (an enchanted Magic 8 Ball would have been classic). |
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Jul 20 2007, 03:48 AM
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#221
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Not exactly true. If you channel a force 10 spirit, you can augment up to 15 with a spell. (Of course, this is for everything except resisting powers and spells, and good luck with summoning/binding that force 10 spirit in the first place...) |
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Jul 20 2007, 03:49 AM
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#222
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yes, but even without the strongly-defined matching of opponents, there is still too wide an array of possible motivations for a discussion of them to be useful in d20. if you were limiting your discussion to dragons from a single game world, like Eberron, that would be one thing, but otherwise the mechanical aspect is the only aspect that can be discussed meaningfully. so it's not really fair to say that discussion is what differentiates d20 from SR. |
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Jul 20 2007, 03:51 AM
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#223
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Okay, you guys are officially scary. :)
First of all, I've been thinking about that alternate scenario that was proposed -- the dragon that was fired, and the company which hires the runners to take out the dragon. This scenario introduces a major imbalance. Specifically, it is in the company's interest, in that case, to provide the runners with every piece of information it has about the dragon -- while at the same time the dragon will not have the same information about the runners. Anyone who has ever done legwork prior to a run will testify to the value of this. The current scenario allows the runners to know the skill/ability/etc range of a dragon of that type, and at the same time it allows the dragon -- assuming it is able to identify the general types and numbers making up the party -- to know the same of the runners. This knowledge is represented accurately by common access to the two rulebooks. Detailed step-by-step replies in the next post. |
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Jul 20 2007, 03:54 AM
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#224
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
No no no... You just convince you GM to let you play a western dragon (base logic 10) augmented with a delta-grade cerebral booster rating 5 (logic 15 (1.5* base logic) and yes I dearly apologize for everyone I confused with my mis-calcultion. Maximum logic for all player races is 6 (7 with exceptional attribute). Augmented maximum is 9 (10 if exceptional attribute). |
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Jul 20 2007, 04:01 AM
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#225
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Edge helps him to go first, and, as long as he has good counterspelling (which, using the other characters allowed, wouldn't be too hard), either the dragon is busy killing the mages doing the counterspelling, or hes attacking my troll. Note: Trolls armor is 12/10. If the dragon does a natural weapon attack (his only option without taking out the mages, which lets the troll put him down), then this happens. Dragon gets 15 dice (7 agi + 6 skill + 2 reach), for melee. Troll takes full defense, and gets 14 (6 reaction + 4 dodge + 4 dodge). Chances are, they tie, and that goes to the troll. Next AP, dragon attacks, troll does the same, and nothing happens. Next AP, troll shoots the dragon, cause dragons out of APs. As to the mob tracking him, all he needs to do is pick up a ghoul contact, and pick up the bodies.
Yes, he needs a counterspeller/anti-magic guy. Note: I only spent 142 karma. Dump some of the rest into demolitions skills, or make a demolitions expert on the team.
Which is why we pair him up with a stealthy anti-magic man.
-Tarantula |
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