Dragon challenge, Taking down a dragon, SR4 style Options

[toturi]

[Talia Invierno]

Partly true.

The challenge is intended to test the runners' abilities directly against the dragon's abilities. If the runners choose not to try to kill, they have acknowledged that an intelligent dragon is more than a match for them.

The idea of reinforcements coming also demonstrates that the dragon is by no means neutralised, just because the runners have it cornered. Why should it be? It probably wouldn't have a Matrix connection -- much game history behind that -- but there's no reason there shouldn't be many other kinds of communication which the runners won't be able to intercept.

But to wait and try to fight off those reinforcements instead of choosing to tackle the dragon still doesn't resolve the basic question: can a team of runners, played to the fullest of their attributes and skills and tech, take down a dragon, similarly played?

[Crusher Bob]

Hmm,

Here's my assumptions about the lair:
I has a secure 'campus' of several hundred acres. Thia may be a mountain, a private island, or just an owned section of land somewhere. So you can't just walk/drive up the the actual lair.

The lair is located is surrounded by relatively neutral territory, such that an assault upon it is not likely to trigger an immediate response from the local national armed forces/etc. (Or just assume that they have been bribed/suborned by the runner's principal). While the runner's can't take more than say, 24 hours, to take the dragon out, the fact that they have started letting off huge bombs, spirit packs, or whatever else they might use will not be commented upon.

The actual lair is bomb resistant. While it would be trivial to crack it open using something like a GBU-28 the runner team will not have access to one. However, this means that just setting some explosives off on the surface are unlikely to do much. In addition, crashing hijacked jets, sub-orbitals, etc into the lair, while they might kill the dragon, will not be a sure thing.

What other general limitations should there be? For example, is using your pornomancer adept to subvert a cult of several hundred and then have them all commit mass-suicide on the lair site to raise the background count a legal move in the contest?

[Fresno Bob]

This is completely off topic, but if someone were to try and get their hands on a nuclear warhead, what would the cost/availability be?

[Talia Invierno]

Prep time to the actual battle? 24 hours sounds reasonable enough. That probably won't be enough time to raise and/or subvert a cult for the purpose.

An implicit limit might be that runners, almost by definition, are not going to have better relations with the "host" country than the dragon, even if it's not a great dragon. The country might not step in to help the dragon, but it's certainly not going to help the runners either.

Unless the runners include some very high level contacts in their builds and make the appropriate rolls (including the "available to receive your call" roll), odds are the country might even object to the runners pulling out too much ordinance on its home turf -- but depending on how quickly the runners finish, the country might not be able to react until long after it's all over.

For the sake of keeping this a playout of a hypothetical scenario and not turning it into a full run, I'm very much limiting the size of the lair.

[toturi]

[sunnyside]

You'll have to flesh things out a little bit more. For example presumably the lair wouldn't be someplace a van can drive. Also one has to presume that some very very nasty wards are up.

Also please tell me that between the books, the errata, and the FAQ that they haven't left a magical way to make drain go poof. In that case when players are casting spirits that have a reasonable chance of punching force 12 or higher wards they are going to suffer.

Really in my opinion it's really really going to come down to tactics. And there is the reason why usually I groan when GMs do stuff like this, they play them wrong.

But, without a little fudging, playing a dragon "right" would be very hard.

A dragon is smarter than you (you're capped at 7 after all ;) ), and it's had a lot of time to think about it's defenses. You probably spent an hour. It knows nearly every spell and power and all their nuances. You have to look up some stuff (meaning you aren't so skilled at using it).

So maybe a GM would have put a lair on the ground where it's easy(er) to blow up.

Or maybe the GM would have forgotten to put magesight fibres all over the place so the dragon can give the runners remote hell. Or to invoke the dragons collection of spirits.

Also there is the bit about dragons being prime runners. Now part of that is just giving them seperate damage tracks and all that. But it typically also implies extra karma for the prime runner as the players level.

This extra karma is sort of how I rationalize the fact that dragons should really be initiates. Otherwise a not too uncommon mage would have an edge over old Lofwyr, who, unable to purchase other skills like basic finanace etc, must have someone else in the shadows running his corp.

Deal with that as you wish I guess. I'm inclined to say that in practice it should be up to the GM to hand wave as they will, which really works better.


If you want to get into the details I would say the base stuff is for a "created" dragon. Advancement works as normal for a prime runner.

Thus for a superhuman prime runner dragon against 200 karma players you would add 400 karma unto the dragon.

In my opinion that (along with all the optional powers plus 12 essence) would squarely make the thing a "higher-end" non-great dragon.

This actually won't totally change the dragon as it's skills and (presumably) stats are all maxed out to start. So you'd just be putting the karma into things like initiation. (hmmm maybe that accounts for the varaible magic? Maybe a magic 12 dragon is functionally a level 6 initiate.)

Anyway I guess the OP has to decide how they want to handle dragons and initiation. It's a huge decision though. If the PCs are all level 4 initiates going up against a non-initiated critter the tables start turning significantly.

(sorry for the bold, I just realized this post is too long, and the OP should make a call on that).

[Fresno Bob]

[Talia Invierno]

[toturi]

Dragons should be initiates but the problem is what Metamagics are they supposed to get and what spirits do they get to summon(ie what "tradition"). You see Dragons are Magicians(ok), but the rules for Magicians are written for metahumans. Do Dragons follow the same rules or no?

Tal: What I mean is that both the dragon and the runners want to engage each other only when 1 side is at a disadvantage. The key to this is while the runners are willing to engage the dragon as long as it is not in its lair and it holding all the cards, whereas the dragon is likely to be disadvantaged if it faces the runners without its Home Lair advantage.

[Fresno Bob]

Its not that people are saying its the only acceptable way, they're saying that its no longer a fight against a dragon at this point. As someone said, you could put a dude in a wheelchair or something at the end of the dungeon, and it would count for as much.

[Talia Invierno]

[sunnyside]

I think the issue is the massive importance of tactics.

A bunch of runners in a straight up fight can nuke a dragon. Especially when they're level 4 initiates and the dragon isn't.

Ah but what happens if they didn't see one of the magesight goggle fibre ports? Suddenly AOE spells are raining down on them.

Also if they go inside the lair the dragon could now detonate a big pile of explosives while its around a couple bends and reinforced blast doors.

[Crusher Bob]

[knasser]

I'm going with the previous statement that the dragon's lair is underground and in the wilderness somewhere, and secure against explosives.

My team is four summoning specialist mages, with counterspelling as their secondary area of expertise (so still horribly good at these prices), and summoning focuses. Remainder of team are two samurai hacker/rigger types.

Team arrives at lair, summons four force 6 earth elementals, invokes them. All use Earthquake power at the same time. Underground lair collapses as do all access tunnels in the area whether known or unknown.

[Talia Invierno]

How ironic. I was just digging up your quote from the other thread, knasser, as being the quote which first challenged the early presentation of SR dragons as being something that no one should want to tangle with:

[knasser]

[Talia Invierno]

Okay, back-replies, because I missed about five or so posts between the ones I wrote.

First, the scenario remains the dragon against the runners. Period. If the runners get tech (including weapons), the dragon gets tech. Do note that a dragon, in and of itself, can't use the Matrix -- so its lair won't be wired.

@ sunnyside:

Exactly. Tactics are the thing. I can't represent an 8 intelligence, so the best I can do is to play it intelligently to the best of my abilities, assuming that those playing the runners will do the same. I'm abstracting as much as I can.

[Crusher Bob]

Here's (pdf file) something interesting to throw into your games.

[Magus]

Who says a dragon cannot use Trodes now in SR4 or AR?

[sunnyside]

Also stuff like this would probably lead to a serious of rules threads.

For example is quake blocked, to any degree by magical means. If not what is happening where the intensity doesn't drop off with radii like a grenade?

Also again if the party shows up they'd have to be really using that counterspelling hard if and mage fibres are around. Plus the dragons high force spirits could pose a real problem for the lesser invoked spirits. True the mages could hypothetically try and invoke/cast their own high force spirits, but that will likely not end well if they go over magic(and even then.....).

Also there is a cat and mouse game possible in the astral if you are in the "spells can attack at range in the astral" camp as oposed to the "it says no ranged attacks in the astral, so spells are short ranged" camp. Most, I think, are in the former until it bites them in the butt. But in that case any mages supporting their dual spirits in the astral risk getting nuked by the dragon hiding in some trees far far far away.

And as that's a surprise situation, depending on how you interprite some stuff, they likely will not get any counterspelling, meaning the PC(s) are dead. The dragon can then relocate, especially if they don't know where the spell came from.

Actually can a dragon even bind foci without karma?

[Talia Invierno]

[Magus]

But Big D's will and such was mostly closed per Sinner when he said that the old SR3 plot threads were closed off. And with no matrix how is most of anything going to get out. Wireless is everywhere. I see no reason as to why a dragon could not make use of AR with Trodes or Nanopaste.

[Crusher Bob]

I'd help to have a bit more concrete info about the dragon lair, since that will greatly effect what you can and can't do.

For example, attacking a dragon he holed up in the Wieliczka Salt Mine will be considerably different from attacking a dragon holed up in a purpose built concrete and steel bunker on his own private island.

[edit]
heh, even a nifty semi-map of the tourist sections of the mine.
[/edit]

[Critias]

It seems to me like the easiest way to go about this would be to make a standard six-man Shadowrunner team with the starting BP and cash (an adept super-Face, say two drone riggers for big machinegun-toting robots, and a trio of mages with one specialized in offensive magic, one in summoning, and one dedicated to spell defense type stuff)... and then take the six million nuyen and invest in mercs (with the Face handling negotiations) and heavy weapons (sniper rifles, HMGs, rocket launchers).

I bet the dragon'd lose.