 Dragon challenge, Taking down a dragon, SR4 style |
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 Jul 22 2007, 02:59 PM
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#351
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689  |
There is a distinction between munchkinism and powergaming. Here I'm obviously encouraging powergaming -- how could I not, in this scenario? I'm expecting to see much that is min-maxed to within a shadow of functionality. toturi and ShadowDragon8685 have already been answered completely by James McMurray and knasser.
Am I to understand that in all your roleplaying experience, your group has never once taken down something stronger than they are individually without having ambushed it? @ Aaron Once we get back to PC builds, one or more such contacts may well be a requirement, depending on what information and personal support they want to set out with. They won't, of course, be involved in the actual combat. |
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Jul 22 2007, 03:43 PM
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#352
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
No, at all, this thread is not in the In the Shadows section. There is no GM. If anything, I am the GM, because I am Canon and Tal, you are not. :D |
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Jul 22 2007, 06:07 PM
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#353
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
If you go back and read what I've said carefully, you'll find I that I have not argued with the ruling. My disagreement was over something quite different, and has been discussed enough that it is approaching the point of "ad nauseum", charitably assuming that it has not past that point already. As such, I shall say no more on the matter, and if you are interested in clarification, I simply refer you to the previous posts. |
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Jul 22 2007, 06:12 PM
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#354
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
FWIW, I regard a character in a one shot that is not suitable for anything else to be "munchkin". IMO, the ritual spellcasting dragon slayers and the bow troll pretty much qualify. (Not that I think that there's anything wrong with that; as I have previously mentioned, I view this as a "roll play" scenario, not a "role play" scenario. From my point of view, any legal abuse is acceptable in a "roll play" -- it's even lauded as clever.)
Hmm, chance encounter? Sure. But, remember, in its own lair, it won't just be a case of not having ambushed it, it's that it will (if it's competent at all) be ambushing us. :) (And though I expect it's banned, I'd like clarification -- are finite loops okay? ;) ) |
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Jul 22 2007, 07:11 PM
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#355
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Ritual spellcasters and trolls with big bows can do nothing but slay dragons?
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Jul 22 2007, 07:12 PM
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#356
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
The only sane answer for that question is "which finite loop?" A blanket answer either way lets in abuses or hedges out useful tricks. |
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Jul 22 2007, 07:24 PM
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#357
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Did you even read the character sheets on those guys? |
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Jul 22 2007, 07:26 PM
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#358
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
The infinite loops are easily fixed by saying that you have to use your own Magic rating instead of your channeled spirit's Magic rating. Call it a house rule if you like, but it would stop the problem.
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Jul 22 2007, 07:32 PM
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#359
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
I agree. And I'm okay with that. I'd just rather know what I can and cannot do prior to working up dossiers, since clearly I cannot go by RAW. :) (... again, not that there's anything wrong with that. I just want to know the parameters.) Personally, I think a better rule set would be: 1. Don't do anything that would ruin the game for other characters if you were playing these characters in a campaign. 2. The characters need to be such that it is conceivable that they could progress from being plain 400BP to 400BP+200K+1e6Y |
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Jul 22 2007, 07:37 PM
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#360
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
1 is too vague to be useful, since what constitutes ruining the game is different for every player, and we don't even know who all the players will be.
What's a 1e6Y? And yeah, I read the sheets. they're highly focused, but not useless outside of this single encounter. The Ritual spellcasters are useful in any situation that irtual spellcasting is useful in. The troll is useful whenever sometihng needs to be killed. |
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Jul 22 2007, 07:53 PM
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#361
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
1e6=1*10^6=1 million Y=nuyen (yeah, that probably was a bit cryptic if you're not a math geek)
Okay, let's change the given scenario in two ways: 1. The target is no longer a dragon. It is now a ghoul. (Technically, it could be anything other than a dragon.) 2. The target is sitting in a background count of 6. Remember, you have to use the group exactly as written. Still useful?
The troll is useful any time a bow can address a problem, and ONLY when the bow can address the problem. Troll is waltzing up to the dragon's lair, dragon sees him. Dragon says to his handy, dandy bound spirit, "Cut that bow string for me." TWANG. Troll is now useless, because he is literally incapable of contributing in any other way. The troll at least has one excuse: He ain't the whole team. |
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Jul 22 2007, 08:00 PM
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#362
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Target Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 16-July 07 Member No.: 12,274 |
Incorrect! Troll with no bow = Decoy. Start runnin, greenie! |
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Jul 22 2007, 08:01 PM
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#363
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Hmm.
Yeah, I guess. I stand corrected. There is some small value in a target. |
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Jul 22 2007, 08:07 PM
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#364
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
And FWIW, while I think the troll is specialized to the point of absurdity, he at least, can *try* to go kill the ghoul.
The ritual team, not so much. |
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Jul 22 2007, 08:28 PM
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#365
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Ah hah, but there is a class of things that would ruin the game for any other player in the game. Things like Pun-Pun or being able to whip up infinite force spirits. Or even some of the non-infinite loop things I can do with Talia's 1:3 rule, like whip up an army of force 18 homonculi and stuff :) There's a grey area in the middle, yeah, but towards the edge cases, things become pretty concrete. |
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Jul 22 2007, 09:23 PM
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#366
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I'd recommend to Talia that she use a modified 1/3 rule. When I was setting up a sample Matrix system in another thread, the chance of the hacker breaking into each node undetected was about 70%. And if I'd just stuck to the average each time, the hacker could break through an endless chain of them. But in fact, two nodes is 0.7 x 0.7. Three is 0.7 x 0.7 x 0.7. It quickly diminishes and it's important to represent that. |
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Jul 22 2007, 09:59 PM
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#367
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Really, short of reintroducing the randomness, there's no way to model it right. The variance in the dice can't be modeled deterministically like that.
Without the randomness, you're swinging the balance in favor of the players, or against. There's really no neutral ground. |
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Jul 23 2007, 12:04 AM
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#368
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Vaevictis. Yes, they can. They all have a spare 5 karma. They just go learn the Slay (Ghoul) spell, and whip up a clay ghoul. 1 hour later... theres a very messy splatter wherever that ghoul was.
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Jul 23 2007, 12:20 AM
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#369
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
The question is: Is 24 hours long enough for Batman to prepare to go against a dragon? If not, then it's simply not enough time to expect a team to do so either. <curt nod> |
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Jul 23 2007, 12:24 AM
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#370
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
Batman only needs a non-defined time to prepare himself against any enemy, be it an evil dimension-destroying deity, or a Greater Dragon that dies if you shoot him down with rockets.
The thing about the non-defined time is, it's always enough for Batman to succeed. :P |
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Jul 23 2007, 02:04 AM
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#371
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you don't understand. Batman does not need an non-defined amount of time to prepare himself. he is already prepared.
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Jul 23 2007, 02:24 AM
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#372
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
Ah, yes, truly, then it's set and match.
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Jul 23 2007, 02:34 AM
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#373
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Does this mean that what we should really be doing is using these rules to create Batman then assume that he wins?
(I feel so bad for slightly derailing this conversation. I'm sorry.) This post has been edited by Doctor Funkenstein: Jul 23 2007, 02:35 AM |
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Jul 23 2007, 04:07 AM
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#374
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Batman doesn't need 24 hours to get ready, he only needs a quick montage.
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Jul 23 2007, 07:33 AM
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#375
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Or, another solution to your issue Vaevictus, is they can all learn the manabolt spell instead (something they'd probably want to have started with instead of slay(dragon)). Then, project, and go pop the ghoul in astral space either with manabolts (since hes a dual natured bastard) or with astral combat and their spirits they can summon/bind.
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