Dragon challenge, Taking down a dragon, SR4 style Options

[Da9iel]

[Crusher Bob]

[Vaevictis]

[Jaid]

[Magus]

Ok here is the team: 6 Super Elven Face Adepts Initiate Level 4 max magic and max kinsethics. We call up Chuck Norris (who as we all know is immortal) convince him that we want 100 super gym thingies and we want him to come and install them. As he is install them we convince him that if he kills the dragon we will buy 300 more and sponsor his next Infomercial. He agrees. Chuck walks into the lair and kills the wrym. I mean really a dragon vs. Chuck. Chuck wins!

Team Wins! yah!

[Particle_Beam]

So, I was wondering, how does Talia Invierno's Mr. Magoo-like dragon defend against all those teams specifically?

Or was it just a hoax, and Talia Invierno didn't prepare it at all?

What's the conclusion?

[Ravor]

Although I wasn't planning on raising the thread, lately I have been wondering whether or not the dragon survived the actual PM playthrough Tarantula proposed or even if Tarantula's offer was taken up on.

[Tarantula]

Talia did PM me, we discussed some things I'd overlooked, and ran through the playthroughs. Talia and I disagree on a few rules interpretations. To quote Talia:

[Jaid]

actually, the spell's hits, *not* net hits, are capped by the spell's force. so your leader has to spend his point of edge before, not after, to uncap his hits for the spell. on the plus side, that also gives him exploding dice...

[Particle_Beam]

So, does that mean that Talia Inverno's sole defense outline relied on three plant spirits bound at force 24 (which would have killed the dragon several times just because of the binding drain damage) and two combat spirits, all bound at force 12? That's it?

And does anybody realise what it means to have force 24 spirits? These things are stronger and better than every Great Dragon. Are we really going to believe that a wimpy normal dragon is going to bind several uber-force spirits without punishment? These uber-spirits have more dice to resist being bound than even a Greater Dragon by the book could come up with. They roll 48 dices just to deny whatever being wishes to enslave them on earth. That's more than every Magic+Conjuring-dice pool could ever be. There's no way to get more dice than those super-uber-spirits to get at least one bound service.

That's just innane.

[Tarantula]

No, Talia said 3 plant spirits at the highest force (yes, with physical drain) the dragon could summon. He never specified the dragons magic, so I went with the max. Nothing says you can't do a group conjuring test. So, as long as the dragon had some other dragons of the same tradition, he could've gotten his spirits summoned.

Jaid: The order of the spellcasting rules says the test for spellcasting is step 3. Then in step 5, the test if it is opposed is done, with the caster needing 1 net hit to succeed. Then it says the hits are limited by force.

This is an oversight of the rules, and is one of the debates Talia didn't wish to get into.

[Particle_Beam]

The Teamwork rules say that the dice bonus that the primary character can receive from his teammates is equal to his skill.

Ritual Spellcasting may perhaps be exerpt from this rule (though I really doubt it, seeing as Ritual Spellcasting is nothing more than Spellcasting with the teamwork rules and other minor details), but you sure can't get enough dices with Conjuring, no matter how many pals are helping you.

Heck, it takes 24 hours to bind the spirit. He'll be long gone by the next sunrise or sunset before the binding ritual even ends.

[Tarantula]

I don't see anything that says the max is equal to the primary characters skill. Quote please?

[Talia Invierno]

I should more accurately have said "the highest force the dragon can conjure and bind" -- but, yes, accepting the likelihood of physical damage but not unconsciousness. Once bound and set to a task, spirits can stay on call indefinitely. As you have identified, ritual magic is one of the dragon's major points of vulnerability. The dragon knew it too, so it makes sense that the dragon would be willing to risk much to make its home as safe as possible against that key point of vulnerability. Obviously the spirits were not all summoned and bound within the past 24 hours, any more than your magicians had developed their group and their abilities and conjured and bound all their own spirits within the past 24 hours. I'd assume they were conjured staggered, leaving just enough time in between to recover.

I counted the number of required plant spirits (ongoing service: Magical Guard) against what would be needed against an unknown generic group of magicians, given the usual outlines of magic groups in the books. (Tarantula has my reasoning there.) When I "froze" the dragon, I had made those calculations thinking that the lodge would help defend against ritual magic. If it doesn't -- did anyone ask the game designers? -- then my calculations were off, but the basic structure to fend off the initial assault should still suffice if you add a plant spirit or two.

This is the only part of the defence that was relevant to the question Tarantula was asking, so that's the only one I mentioned. Doesn't mean it's the only one that exists, or indeed that those are the only ongoing services of the spirits you do now know about. There are other points of vulnerability, after all.

[Particle_Beam]

[Tarantula]

Thanks. The problem I see is that ritual magic references teamwork tests, but restates it.

[Particle_Beam]

As I said, Ritual spellcasting may perhaps be an exception of the normal teamwork test, but even if you should allow teamwork to work for conjuring, then at least the conjuring test will be limited for sure.

There is no way to bind force 24 spirits.

[Draconis]

[Tarantula]

Actually, brains in a jar can be quite hard to kill if that jar happens to be plugged into a navy submarine.

Though, ritual magic solves that quite nicely. :)

[Draconis]

[Tarantula]

Yes, symbolic. Whats so hard about that? Material could work too, seeing as how theres a whole body thats linked to it out there someplace (if it was recently made anyhow).

[Draconis]

[tisoz]

My $.02:
If this is ever going to actually happen and be fair, have one team run the shadowrunner team and another team run the dragon with a GM playing referee. Have the 2 parties meet on neutral ground, with their normal preparations and defenses.