 Dragon challenge, Taking down a dragon, SR4 style |
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 Jul 18 2007, 02:44 PM
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#76
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869  |
No I never read the description of the Divining metamagic, I used my real life Divining powers to get a vague answer about the Divining metamagic ability in SR4. <smack upside your head> Don't be an arse or you'll get the stick! As far as I can see, Divining is BEST used as a scouting tool. Ridiculous questions like "Will I get shot today?" and "Is Mr. Suzuki going to pick up his dry cleaning today?" are highly dependent on a vast multitude of variables and are almost guaranteed to give vague answers. However, the map and defenses of a fortification are fixed and are not likely to be changed within a given finite timeline and therefore much more likely to give straight answers and clear visions. |
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Jul 18 2007, 03:01 PM
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#77
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
You don't even need trodes or paste. Holoprojectors and voice recognition are standard issue on commlinks. Saying a dragon can't access VR makes sense because of the different physiologies. Saying a dragon can't access AR is ludicrous. |
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Jul 18 2007, 03:12 PM
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#78
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,237 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
Again divinging is for events, and it is always cryptic. It is not useful for winning the lotto.
It also does not "fix" the future. For example if your character asks "will I die today" and they get what they think is a "no" answer they have not entered into some Disney romcom where miraculously anything they do that should kill them somehow manages to leave them happy and healthy, and then they develop a British accent and get the girl. All it would mean is that the GM wasn't particularily planning on railroading a TPK today. |
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Jul 18 2007, 04:39 PM
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#79
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Let's see: @ Crusher Bob:
No problem obtaining something that has the potential -- I'll want to know whether it's a drone or satellite, and to note the same on the PC sheet-to-be. You'll pick up that it's surprisingly reinforced underneath: not to blast door level, but enough to make it quite a nice bunker. You can't seem to pick up more detail, not even to tell whether it's metal or concrete. It's in a very seismically stable part of the world (call it the Canadian shield), so you don't even get the incidental S and P waves to analyse. @ Vaevictis:
With what's been said so far, you haven't found any. That includes Crusher Bob's "high gain thermographic observation". @ ShadowDragon8685:
Interesting logic. Although yes: it probably does know that dragons have actually been killed in this world -- as well as far more shadowrunners :grinbig: I find your definition of "neutralised" highly suspect. You are, of course, welcome to play through it, in combat turns. :)
I'll say it explicitly: if the PCs don't bring in other persons in any combat manner, the dragon won't bring in other persons in any combat manner. That keeps the challenge as simple as possible. @ Crusher Bob:
The nature of a secret is an interesting thing. Several SR organisations and every magic group with the "secret" stricture seem to have managed it quite well. That some people know the secret is not nearly as important as who has the secret, and what is their motivation to keep it secret? Which is not to confirm or deny any specific construction methods. :) @ toturi (and a few others):
I'd not allow that question for PCs to make. Would you? More realistically, if they achieved enough successes, I'd probably give them an answer that translates somehow to "It depends on what you do, compared to what others do." You know, that pesky free will and all that. Others have addressed the broader limitations of Divination, so I won't. Each Divination attempt takes time, of course. If I'm to give you any answers, be sure to include Divination on an Awakened PC's character sheet. @ James McMurray
The one piece of canon is the cautionary tale. AR is a very new thing. This particular dragon doesn't choose to experiment himself on the bleeding edge of Matrix technology. It's almost the opposite of a runner's mentality, that way. This dragon's lair isn't wired. Deal. :) |
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Jul 18 2007, 04:42 PM
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#80
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
You can also get hi-res sat shots of the excavation in progress. Nobody ever throws old imagery away. |
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Jul 18 2007, 04:49 PM
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#81
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
No worries on this end. Feel free to downgrade the believability of your scenario to your heart's content. :) Out of curiosity though, when did Bleeding Edge get translated to "everyone in any decently civilized area of the planet has been using it for years?" :) |
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Jul 18 2007, 04:53 PM
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#82
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
There are options. The army has a set of manuals on designing hardened shelters to withstand nuclear attacks. If they are willing to naildrive and know precisely where you are it's possibly to kill anything, but a couple of billion dollars can buy a lot of security. The primary limiting factor isn't air, it's heat buildup. And the way you get out is going things like running a 1000 meter horizontal shaft to a vertical shaft that is at least 50 meters deeper than the connecting tunnel. The top 30 meters are full of sand. To get out, you open the trap door at the bottom and dump the sand (by remote control). From the outside it's invisible, and nearly impossible to get in even if you know it's there without heavy equipment. |
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Jul 18 2007, 05:22 PM
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#83
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Don't you actually mean:
Check the canon active skill list. Nothing electronic there. (I do feel free to play with Knowledge skills, however ... as in geology ;))
As in, about a third of their lifetimes? I won't be back again for a few hours. (Deadline.) |
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Jul 18 2007, 05:32 PM
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#84
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Rationalize it however you feel most comfortable. It doesn't change that a creature with a logic of at least 8 will be able to easily figure out the basics of AR, and a creature with the resources you've given this dragon will be able to adequately protect his internal networks via metahuman resources (hired, cajoled, or whatever).
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Jul 18 2007, 05:55 PM
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#85
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Sigh. From p.108:
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Jul 18 2007, 06:02 PM
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#86
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Dragons are not unaware, they simply have no ranks.
Nice try though. :) |
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Jul 18 2007, 06:07 PM
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#87
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
not that i think dragons should all be complete noobs, but the phrase "or someone born before the Computer Age" really does strongly imply that dragons are unaware.
not that it matters. being unaware doesn't prevent you from hiring a tech specialist. |
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Jul 18 2007, 06:09 PM
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#88
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The critter list doesn't have qualities on it, only powers. The "uneducated" quality is appropriate for creatures which grew up in primitive societies - which certainly includes anyone who grew up during the fourth age. Any dragon who hasn't "bought off" the uneducated flaw presumably has it.
Now that being said, if anything is powered in the dragon's cave it is a point of potential attack. If nothing is wired up, that's a point of vulnerability as well. Shadowrun always favors the attacker, that's why player characters survive at all. -Frank |
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Jul 18 2007, 06:24 PM
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#89
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,237 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
I think what Talia is saying is that we've got a ludite dragon on our hands. And a reclusive one at that. It is possible. Especially among the non greats. Just because it could learn to use electronics doesn't mean it wouldn't rather spend it's time searching for the perfect cherry blossom and contemplating upon the imperfections of the ones it finds. Or some such.
Actually if this thing generally avoids tech(so no magesight fibres, no massive subteranian explosive charges designed to drop tons of rock on the team, no bacteria of doom) you might just be able to make a single grade 4 initiate, copy them six times, and have them muscle their way through along with a swarm of high power spirits taking point. Actually does anyone know a reason why it would be bad to have the initiates and spirits come in astrally? The dragon is dual after all. This would circument physical traps. The only trick I can think of is if you have constricting wards of some kinda that can force a projecting character to risk being disrupted. Something like warded walls ceiling and a far ward. And then have a warded vehicle, that takes up the whole of the corridor, ram the far ward. Meaning any astral forms inside get squished. Of course that's hard to do if the group systematically clears all wards as they move along. |
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Jul 18 2007, 06:27 PM
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#90
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Absolutely last one for a while:
"Generally" does not imply "always. The uneducated quality is not needed to be unaware of a technical skill. (I'd question whether dragons are "uneducated", per quality interpretation, in any case.) If the authors meant that Electronics 0 is the same thing as no rating in Electronics, why did they go out of their way to specify the distinction? Since they did specify it: why didn't they explicitly write Electronics 0 in the description of the dragon's skills? Remember though: this is a straight-out-of-the-book dragon, which is why I'm sticking to what's strictly in the book wrt Active skills, attributes, and powers. (I am giving it Knowledge skills, up to the standard chargen level.) Since repeating dragons are to be treated as Prime Runners, they'd get karma to raise or open whatever skill they liked. |
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Jul 18 2007, 07:34 PM
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#91
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
They didn't explicitly write Electronics 0 on dragons because they didn't explicitly write any skill rated 0 anywhere. Are you saying that the beat cop and bartender can't use computers? Or perhaps that a horse cannot jump? Dragons have no rating listed for Thrown Weapons, are they incapable of throwing a rock (or car) at someone? They've also got no rating in social skills. No wonder they hide alone in caves. :) |
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Jul 18 2007, 07:40 PM
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#92
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
dragons are not listed as having 0 electronics skill, but they were also all born before the computer edge--which is specifically listed as being an example of someone who would be unaware in technical skills. some dragons may have bought that off, in the seventy years since they woke up, but not all of them will have--and maybe not even most of them.
but, like i said, it's not like they can't get a trusted lackey to do it for them. |
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Jul 18 2007, 07:44 PM
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#93
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Just for the record, I'm not disagreeing that some dragons may be incompetent with technology. I'm disagreeing that the canon makes them automatically incompetent. It gives an example, which is not the same as a blanket statement.
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Jul 18 2007, 07:51 PM
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#94
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Mage with the shape (earth/concrete/etc) spell. And pile all your nuyens worth of explosive on that. Shape it down to where the dragon is (Use Detect Dragon), and remote control boom.
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Jul 18 2007, 07:55 PM
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#95
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Apparently, someone has never seen War Games. If Mathew Broderick can crack the entire nuclear defense network, I'm pretty sure that a team of highly trained Shadowrunners can take over one little nuclear weapon. |
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Jul 18 2007, 08:01 PM
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#96
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/generic/5e8f/ Indeed. Which is what the conclusion was way back a couple pages ago. Neither is stupid enough to engage the other on their own territory. |
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Jul 18 2007, 08:19 PM
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#97
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Target Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 16-July 07 Member No.: 12,274 |
My two cents here:
So we have a game mechanic that limits AR use for Dracoforms. Oh, and hi, everyone :D |
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Jul 18 2007, 08:25 PM
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#98
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
LOL. Yeah but he was Ferris Bueller...the Chuck Norris of the 80's. |
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Jul 18 2007, 08:27 PM
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#99
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Zing! The newbie knocks one out of the park on the first post and trumps 4 pages of post warring! |
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Jul 18 2007, 08:36 PM
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#100
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Welcome, Prae! Very nice catch.
Voice recognition -- anyone catch Conan O'Brien and the SotA telephone system last week? (Damn you guys. I've got too much to do not to be working, here!) |
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