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> Creating a THOR node
Talia Invierno
post Jul 19 2007, 06:17 AM
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From the Dragon challenge thread:
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Fine, make the node that controls thor shots, I'll give my technomancer 200 karma worth, and we'll see if he can make it thor the lair. Then he'll retire with his millions.

Is anyone willing to make up a node worthy of guarding a THOR shot? complete with all the counter-security that would entail?
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Crusher Bob
post Jul 19 2007, 06:21 AM
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I guess it depends on what the THORs get classified as. Does the rest of the world simply views them as conventional weapons or as NBC type weapons? If they are view as NBC type weapons, then one likely security setup is for the weapons to be manually fired from a manned platform. I'd assume the actuall weapons would be made on the moon and then return to earth orbit. Shooting big rocks into orbit only to drop them back down again costs way too much (unless you want to build a space elevator or sky-hook first).
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Ravor
post Jul 19 2007, 06:24 AM
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Assume ( Rating 6 ) programs across the board, as much IC as the node(s) can handle (Which depending on how you view Agents as working might either be near infinate or pitiful.) and Security Deckers with ( Skill 4 ) and ( Rating 6 ) commlinks/programs "on call" the moment an alarm is tripped.
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Da9iel
post Jul 19 2007, 07:05 AM
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THOR shot platform? Why not go higher than 6 on the ratings? This is a mega's or large government's very security sensitive equipment. I think this would be one of the times where pulling out the GM discretion on exceeding a 6 would be totally called for and acceptable.
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Aaron
post Jul 19 2007, 11:33 AM
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I think 6's are plenty. And to hell with spiders "on call," they'd be patrolling. As would a bunch of IC programs. All of which would be first encountered in the choke-point node that connects to the actual control node. Same thing with the control node. Plus, both nodes would probably be "ultra-violet," which hasn't been defined yet, but is scary.

This is even assuming that the actual launch mechanism doesn't require two metahumans with keys that have to be turned at the same time, like in "War Games."
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sunnyside
post Jul 19 2007, 12:07 PM
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You know how a lot of the time the hackers/deckers have to actually go on runs because of isolated systems? This is like that, only moreso.

I think after the whole deuce business any vestiges of "our system is just to badass to ever be cracked" would be gone.

It's an isolated system. linked at most to other sattelites in a group, there are a couple metahumans who need FOB codes or something to fire the things up there somewhere.
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Buster
post Jul 19 2007, 12:24 PM
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Not to rain on your guys' parade, but despite War Games' claim, nuclear missile silos aren't accessible from the outside world, only the personnel stationed inside have the launch keys and there's a big book of verification protocols to authenticate initiation commands. I've worked at a military satellite subcontractor site and even they were completely cut off from the internet. I doubt very seriously that a Thor control station would have ANY access the matrix. There's no reason in the world it would need it.

These MIGHT succeed:
  • Mind control some inside personnel
  • Sneak some trojan horses in with their manual software updates.
  • Impersonate some high ranking official, spoofing military command codes, retinal scans, voice prints, etc. and call in a strike.
  • The usual blackmail, kidnapping, hostage, etc. gambits.
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James McMurray
post Jul 19 2007, 02:29 PM
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One node? More like 15. All set up in a mazelike matrix with no signposts. And all constantly patrolled by agents and security hackers. Basically you set it up as deep as you need to in order to ensure almost 100% probability of someone's stealth 12 CF being seen through before they can find the actual node that controls the aiming mechanisms, much less the node that contains the firing commands, the other node that holds the load commands, etc.

Then you turn off all of the power until you need to fire something or run a randomly scheduled test.
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Ravor
post Jul 19 2007, 02:51 PM
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QUOTE (Da9iel)
THOR shot platform? Why not go higher than 6 on the ratings? This is a mega's or large government's very security sensitive equipment. I think this would be one of the times where pulling out the GM discretion on exceeding a 6 would be totally called for and acceptable.


Because I hate the the very idea of allowing ( Rating 8+ ) programs to exist in the world at all, (I used to make expections for AIs, but seeing that they are handled as Sprites, that is covered via Threading.) and see ( Rating 7 ) as literally being prototypes and experiments. (Or perhaps as belonging in an UV Node.)

<><><><><>

As for the rest, well I guess I see Thor Shot platforms as being unmanned, so it would have to have communications, and figure that there are probably enough of them in the sky that they aren't going to all be crawling with Security Deckers.

As for multiple protected nodes and the like, yeah I agree, and I figure that in order to actually launch two Admin Level Users has to enter the command in the same IP pass.

Oh and forget about using the probing rules, you have to hack-on-fly because the system's connection "flickers" 1-4 times an hour unless an Admin Level user disables the feature in the first node. Of course, doing so is hardwired to send out an alert to the corp.
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 19 2007, 03:07 PM
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One question to ask in designing these systems, perhaps, is how many successful "hijackings" have happened (every one of which would be documented in canon) -- as opposed to how many runner-level attempts (not necessarily documented)?

The lower the fraction, the higher the level of security which is standard.
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James McMurray
post Jul 19 2007, 03:15 PM
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I think it's safe to assume that a system which can level nations and multinationals, including that of its owner, is probably protected as much as humanly possible. Moreso if its owner happens to be a dragon.
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sunnyside
post Jul 19 2007, 03:37 PM
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Only thing I remember from anything remotely cannon was the Lone Eagle incident. Where some native americans manage to take a missle silo long enough to launch an ICBM at russia (which didn't reach it's target). However it looks like they didn't have the capacity to change the missles target or anything. And they got taken out shortly after that.

They may have had access to magic at a time when almost no-one else did. (Daniel Howling Coyote was a powerful shaman, quite possibly an initiate, two years after the incident, the immortal elves were able to do some weak magic decades earlier, and the first known awakened critter appeared seven years prior, so it is quite possible they had a little mojo on their side. )
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Ravor
post Jul 19 2007, 03:39 PM
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Node X

Reponse 6 / System 6 / Firewall 6 / Analyze 6

IC A 6 / Attack 6 / Armor 6 / Analyze 6 / Trace 6

IC B 6 / Black Hammer 6 / Armor 6 / Analyze 6 / Trace 6

Medic 6 / Attack 6 / Black Hammer 6 / Trace 6 are stored on the Node for the IC to change their payload as needed. (If an AR hacking attempt is detected then IC B will change Black Hammer for Attack, and visa-versa.)

Both the IC and the Node are programmed to use Analyze every IP Pass until an intruder is detected. If the IC believes an user to be legal, they will start a Trace and if an illegal access point is discovered then an alarm is raised.

Also the system is running at ( Reponse 5 ) due to system load, so unless one of the IC is crashed treat everything (Except Firewall) as being ( Rating 5 ).

Note that the Node's Matrix connection "flickers" once every 15 minutes unless deactivated by someone with Admin Level access. However, the system is hardwired to send and alert to it's control station in that event. The system gives routine warnings about the connection flicker to avoid dumpshocking their own people. (So you have to hack-on-the-fly, but at least you'll have warning before you are dumped.)


... Repeat as often as you think the corps would spend on Matrix Security, personally I see 2-5 such Nodes to go through. ...


Node A

Reponse 6 / System 6 / Firewall 6 / Analyze 6

IC A 6 / Attack 6 / Armor 6 / Analyze 6 / Stealth 6

IC B 6 / Black Hammer 6 / Armor 6 / Analyze 6 / Stealth 6

Medic 6 / Attack 6 / Black Hammer 6 / Stealth 6 are stored on the Node for the IC to change their payload as needed. (If an AR hacking attempt is detected then IC B will change Black Hammer for Attack, and visa-versa.)

Both the IC and the Node are programmed to use Analyze every IP Pass until an intruder is detected.

Also the system is running at ( Reponse 5 ) due to system load, so unless one of the IC is crashed treat everything (Except Firewall) as being ( Rating 5 ).

This is the actual control node, in order to fire, two Admin Level users has to issue the command in the same IP Pass.

It's not impossible for a Decker, Technomancer, or an AI to hack into by any means, but it generally shouldn't be worth the effort either.

*Edit*

I didn't stat out any Security Deckers that might be logged on since I figure there are enough Thor Platforms to make paying a Security Decker to sit in each system not cost effective, but if an alarm is raised, or if one happens to be logged into the system at any given time assume that they have Physical Stats ( Rating 2 ) / Mental Stats ( Rating 3 ) / Decking Skills ( Rating 4 ) / Commlink ( Rating 6 ) / Program Load ( Rating 6 ).

*Edit 2.0*

Made a few error corrections.

*Edit 3.0*

I made a few more changes to bring the Node more in line with what I was envisioning. Oh, and assume that in order to even gain access to the Node in a first place, you have to first crack a dedicated communications net as well as per Buster's suggestion.
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Tarantula
post Jul 19 2007, 03:59 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray)
One node? More like 15. All set up in a mazelike matrix with no signposts. And all constantly patrolled by agents and security hackers. Basically you set it up as deep as you need to in order to ensure almost 100% probability of someone's stealth 12 CF being seen through before they can find the actual node that controls the aiming mechanisms, much less the node that contains the firing commands, the other node that holds the load commands, etc.

Then you turn off all of the power until you need to fire something or run a randomly scheduled test.

It can get higher than 12 with submersion.
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Buster
post Jul 19 2007, 04:02 PM
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QUOTE (Ravor)
As for the rest, well I guess I see Thor Shot platforms as being unmanned, so it would have to have communications...

True, if they are unmanned then they would definitely be remotely accessible, however that doesn't necessarily mean that those comm lines have any connection to the matrix.

If I owned a weapon like that, I'd communicate with it via a chain of dedicated direct-line-of-site microwave/laser comm lines that have no connection to anything else. I would have a dedicated stream from ground-base to geosynchronous relay-satellite, then dedicated streams to relay-satellites around the globe until reaching the actual weapon platform. To bust into that system you'd need to fly a drone right into one of its streams and spoof it with a (literal) man-in-the-middle attack.

Also, if I was a country with a megabillion-nuyen weapon that can take out any of my hardened bunkers and make a mess of any of my cities, I would spend a huge chunk of my national budget on security. I would have at least a few security deckers online 24/7 on the platform and each of the dedicated relay nodes and have hordes of agents on top of that just in case someone spoofed the comm lines with a drone-based man-in-the-middle attack.
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Ravor
post Jul 19 2007, 04:07 PM
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Aye, with the exception of Security Deckers I agree with everything you just said. :cyber:
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Tarantula
post Jul 19 2007, 04:11 PM
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But then all I have to do is get a hold of a microwave/laser transmitter, and spoof commands to it. Even easier.
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Buster
post Jul 19 2007, 04:16 PM
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QUOTE (Ravor)
Aye, with the exception of Security Deckers I agree with everything you just said.  :cyber:

True, on second thought: never send a human to do the job of a machine. As an aspiring supervillain, I would never trust my superweapons in the hands of mere mortals, I'd go agents/IC all the way.
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Ravor
post Jul 19 2007, 04:21 PM
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I don't think Spoof actually works like that Tarantula, because even with a dedicated communications network you could still pile on the Node System I posted on top of that, so spoofing your way into the communications grid would only allow you a crack at hacking your way into the platform itself.
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Ryu
post Jul 19 2007, 04:26 PM
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If it has to be a matrix node, I´d have a rather simple device check the list of accounts vs. an offline list every round (every IP if you are even more paranoid). If the online list contains unknown entries, the node is SWAMPED by IC and the THOR controller taken offline.
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Ravor
post Jul 19 2007, 04:31 PM
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Ok, question, exactly what type of device are you using to check an offline list against an online list in orbit? And how exactly do you update the ofline list which you would want to do on a regular basis?
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Eleazar
post Jul 19 2007, 04:42 PM
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All of these fail-safes people keep mentioning could all be worked around by a simple hacking+exploit or hacking+spoof test. You have to remember that hacking in SR4 is very abstract.

One last thing, for those of us that don't know what a THOR platform is, what is it?
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Ravor
post Jul 19 2007, 04:54 PM
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Sure, a ( Hacking + Exploit Test ) gets you into the node, but you still have to deal with it's defenses, including IC, hacking isn't quite that abstract.

And basically a THOR Platform is an orbital railgun that launches metal rods at ground based targets.
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Fix-it
post Jul 19 2007, 05:21 PM
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something like a THOR or nuclear weapons would not be controllable via the matrix.

period. end of story.

you don't put the security of something like that in the hands of a system that can be manipulated maliciously.

I'm pretty sure everyone in SR has seen the Terminator trilogy.
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Ravor
post Jul 19 2007, 05:23 PM
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Ok, then how do you control your unmanned orbital rail guns?
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