 Endowment Ideas, Yes, they're broken |
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 Jul 27 2007, 10:48 PM
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#1
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032  |
I recently re-read the endowment power that some great-forms get, and did a search on endowment-related topics. About 10 minutes later I returned to dumpshock and did a thread search for endowment-related posts. (bad joke, sorry :eek:)
So... I went through the powers list and tried to think up ways to use each of the powers that Guardian and Task spirits (the ones that get endowment) can get. I'm assuming that Endowing Ally spirits are impossible, and that you can't endow a skill even if it's granted as an optional power. Expect items marked with a * to be banned faster than a ban fired from a rubber band by a member of a thrash metal band.
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Jul 27 2007, 10:53 PM
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#2
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Read again, carefully. The character can suddenly only exist in the astral plane... and is thus shipfted from the physical to the astral. great way of 'teleporting', if you don't mind shopping for new clothes. |
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Jul 27 2007, 11:00 PM
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#3
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Things get even more interesting with free spirits; they can endow metamagic techniques too.
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Jul 27 2007, 11:08 PM
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#4
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Read even more carefully. The Astral Form power doesn't move you, and it doesn't preclude you from becoming Dual Natured or even physical if for some reason that's part of your life path. The only thing the power does is make you a native of the astral plane able to manifest as a projecting magician can. So if you're stranded on the astral plane for whatever reason, a spirit with endowment can give you the Astral Form hookup and then you won't die in a few hours and you can manifest to your friends and go "boogy-boogy". But while that's nice and all - it won't shift you whole-sale into the astral any more than a possession spirit will pull its body wholesale into the astral plane just because it happens to already have the Astral Form power. -Frank |
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Jul 27 2007, 11:13 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Did you mean to say, "get the great-form plant spirit to grant regeneration to the entire team."? |
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Jul 27 2007, 11:58 PM
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#6
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, the Posession Spirit has the Posession Power to come to the physical plane, as do normal spirits with the Materialization power. Only those powers allow exception to Astral form - so if a character gets endowed with Astral Form, he 'exists in the astral plane only'. Bazoom. |
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Jul 28 2007, 12:10 AM
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#7
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
That's a fascinating viewpoint, and having read the relevent sections and actually written the endowment power, I don't share it. Astral Form does not contain a transportation clause nor does it grant some sort of exclusivity. If you are physical for any reason, Astral Form doesn't actually stop you from doing that. So no Bazoom. You just get the standard powers of Astral Form critters - you can persist on the Astral indefinitely and you can hazily appear to physical critters in manifest (not materialized) form. It's really pretty unexciting. --- By the way, Materialization requires Astral Form to function properly, so in order for your magician to materialize from astral projection you need two spirits throwing down Endowment - one for Astral Form and one for Materialization. Not unobtainable of course - but non-trivial to achieve. -Frank |
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Jul 28 2007, 12:17 AM
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#8
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
'exists in the astral plane only' is pretty exclusive. |
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Jul 28 2007, 12:35 AM
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#9
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Yes. :) @FrankTrollman and Rotbart van Dainig: Interesting arguments. To quote the relevant text (as is relevant to the discussion):
... As much as I see Frank's version as being more balanced, it strikes me that the power does turn you entirely astral. There's also the option that it doesn't turn you astral and simply makes you immune to physical attacks and spells, but I don't think anyone's arguing that. The Materialisation and Possession (and inhabitation) powers then give exceptions to the Astral Form rule, which I think is a fair way to think about it and works in the specific-overrides-general framework all RPGs need to follow to make sense.
As for my talking about the astral gateway power, yes I realise you're transported completely. I was more thinking about it being used for (mystic-)adept initiates performing astral quests, but I suppose there are other uses for the astral gateway. Also, Do mystic adepts become a better choice now that any grade-1 initiate with conjuring can summon a spirit that can allow someone to astrally project? Sure, it costs a bit for the power use (a service per day or something?) but it might be worth it. Oops, going off topic here. Can anyone think of any other good uses of endowing powers? |
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Jul 28 2007, 02:16 AM
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#10
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Well then spirits are pretty well and thoroughly fucked, because they don't actually stop having this power when they possess or materialize. The key point here is that Astral Form doesn't actually turn you anything - it just sets a ground state. If you have it when you aren't in that ground state (for example: you have Materialized and are now Dual Natured), or later acquire it while not in that ground state (for example: you are a physical human and someone layers it on you with Endowment), you keep whatever state you are currently in, only your (largely theoretical) ground state changes. This isn't the only interpretation of the words in the book, the book is pretty vaguely written on this point. But it is the only interpreation that is at all consistent with the way Shadowrun works. Astral Form does not continuously shunt critters who have it into a wholly Astral existance. Not because it can't be read to say it does that, but because we know that Spirits can Materialize and not have that happen. Therefore the power is not a continuous shunt to the Astral. Whatever it is that the power is or means, it does not make you suddenly stop existing on the Physical Plane. Seriously, it doesn't do that. -Frank |
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Jul 28 2007, 02:25 AM
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#11
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Well, to be fair, Astral Form is essentially just being muted/overridden while a power like Materialization is being used. Astral Form is a passive ability that's always "on," while Materialization is the active ability that says "shut up, Astral Form, I'm taking over the show for a bit." Astral Form, of course, gets all huffy and stomps off in a show of dramaticism that would make a prairie dog jealous.
Anyway, I agree with you on all accounts. It's goofy to assume that Astral Form lets you get around a fundamental law of magic in the Sixth World, at least as easily as it does in this case, and the rules are very much lacking when it comes to such things. In the end, the fault comes to two things: One, players and GMs simply not using common sense and two, whoever's responsible specifically chose to leave tons of loopholes in the game in favor of keeping things simple and rules-light (probably with the assumpation that players and GMs would, in fact, use common sense). Well, relatively rules-light anyway. EDIT: Actually now that I thought about it, the real problem with this rule at least is that Astral Form shouldn't be a critter power. It's a characteristic, no different than listing their stats, astral initiative, or skills. |
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Jul 28 2007, 03:06 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
"A critter with the Astral Form power exists in the astral plane only." (sr4.287) I don't see how that can be reconciled with your statement. Materialization is a power that provides an exception to this statement. I agree that the Astral Form power breaks pretty much all Shadowrun precedent, and that it is not how it should be, but, well, it says what it says. |
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Jul 28 2007, 03:17 AM
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#13
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Yes, I'm pretty sure that we can all agree that the Astral Form power was a really bad idea and that a critter's nature could have been better established by simply adding a "type" (Astral, Physical, or Dual) category to the Critter stats and that we should just cover up our eyes, whenever we see the Astral Form power listed and simply pretend that it does not exist and that anyone who insists that this power is real will be punched in the face repeatedly and possibly set on fire.
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Jul 28 2007, 03:20 AM
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#14
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Related Question:
Am I reading Endowment right? Does it let you effectively gain unlimited uses of a power in exchange for one sustained service with effectively no limit on how long you can have that power since it's a bound spirit? Also, are there rules for delivering a Touch-range spell (of which Endowment is) to a large group at once? |
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Jul 28 2007, 03:28 AM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
I vote for that. Same goes for the Materialization "power". Just as long as we don't end up splitting powers up into Special Attacks, Special Qualities, Supernatural Abilities, Spell-Like Abilities, and Extraordinary Abilities. :D |
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Jul 28 2007, 03:34 AM
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#16
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
If you like a touch of nastiness in your games, you could have a free spirit broker a deal with a ghost, endow the ghost with the Inhabitation power and let it merge with a metahuman to "live again."
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Jul 28 2007, 03:50 AM
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#17
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
I agree, but the addition of the Astral Form power does not take away the (meta)human's natural "I exist in the physical plane" power. Endowment is additive. That's not to say that the power wouldn't be useful. It would very nicely make a person able to indefinitely hang out in astral space, for example. But I can't see how it would take away anything. |
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Jul 28 2007, 04:05 AM
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#18
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
The fact that it says "only". Means, you exist in the astral plane, and in no other planes. I.E. you aren't around in the physical plane anymore.
A simple fix to this one, GM says "No more physical body, brain, etc? Dead. New character." |
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Jul 28 2007, 04:22 AM
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#19
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
It is really fun to create an endowment chain, combined with some very useful Spirit Powers, and Personafix chips to create an army with some of the more devestating Great Form powers.
The very best way to break endowment is to make a deal with a spirit with the Karma Drain power and then go to a big rave or a sold-out rock-concert (maybe a sporting event). Hundreds, perhaps thousands, (tens of thousands if the band is very famous) of people high on various emotions, just waiting for their karma to be drained and you will the ability to take from everyone who is experiencing an emotional high in your line of sight. You'll probably be able to get several thousand karma in one shot. |
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Jul 28 2007, 04:34 AM
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#20
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Justification for the "dead" solution is this. Spirits don't need physical bodies to stay alive. Metahumans do. No body = you dead.
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Jul 28 2007, 04:48 AM
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#21
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Endowment is not an attack. And seriously, while Astral Form can be read to shunt everything that has it exclusively and irrevocably to the Astral Plane - it really seriously obviously does not do that. And because there is another reading anywhere in the multiverse where that particular stupid doesn't happen - that's clearly the more correct interpretation. --- Rules are not statements in sentential logic. Just because one thing says that you are "only A" does not necessarily mean that you aren't B. While it means that in sentential logic, directive logic doesn't work that way. That merely means that as of that rule you are only A, other rules can come in and have you be B or even ~A and there's no contradiction - merely a priority. Astral Form does not have the priority to kick you out of the physical plane while you're on it. That's why materialization works at all. -Frank |
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Jul 28 2007, 05:09 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 13-July 06 From: Long Beach Sacrifice Zone Member No.: 8,885 |
I see your point, Frank, but I also disagree. Not for any of the above reasons, but from a GM point of view... If I'm running a game with an evil nasty bad guy (and I do and I am) who should not die yet, but the team is really on fire and is doing very well the first time said evil NPC is encountered/reveals himself/rear-ended on the freeway... ...this is the 'get out of jail free' card. The 'he fell into an active volcano, he must be dead, right?' dodge. In short, it's mainly designed as a way for a GM to avoid his players playing SO WELL that they effectively cut the story arc short. "And your reward for your skill in roleplaying, tactical expertise, and teamwork is.. the adventure's over, you won, and... umm... give me a minute to think up a whole new plotline." This is one of those situations where the RAW states that something can occur, but the GM should be able to look at it and point to it and tell the players, "No you can't have blood magic! Not yours!! A total shift from existing on the physical to exisiting astrally? Not for you! Toxic shamans? Fine! You made one, the team killed you, we moved on! Make another character already! Move-by-wire four (in SR3)? The highest level tactical computer (SR2)? It's installed, not alphaware, and you die on the table!" Well... maybe say it to them in a less abusive and condescending manner, perhaps. |
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Jul 28 2007, 05:19 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
... and yet it seems that people interpret what it says that way. Not so seriously obvious, eh? (Well, other than the "irrevocably" part, which you seem to have randomly added in yourself.) |
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Jul 28 2007, 05:27 AM
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#24
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Frank, its very easy to read it that astral form is the base state of the creature with it, and materialization/possession override it. Physical plane is the base state for metahumans, but astral form would override that.
As far as your logic goes, if it can be interpreted out using one form (sentential) then it is a perfectly valid interpretation. As equally valid as the one you claim via directive. |
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Jul 28 2007, 05:39 AM
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#25
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Actually no. Anything you come up with from sentential logic on a rule book is inherently invalid. Sentential logic does not apply to questions, exclamations, or Commands.
Seriously, just because you get an answer doesn't mean that what you're saying is in any way valid.
It's an RPG debate. Just because something is obviously correct and and something else is obviously wrong doesn't mean that some jack won't come and passionately defend a position that is so undermined as to be merely a thin layer of dust on the void. -Frank |
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