 Endowment Ideas, Yes, they're broken |
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 Jul 28 2007, 05:52 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441  |
... and that jack could just as easily be you, you know. EDIT: And to clarify, my main problem is your claim of serious obviousness. Read the thread; it's seriously obvious that your claim is not seriously obvious. |
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Jul 28 2007, 06:34 AM
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#27
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
You're arguing by utilizing logic, which is primarily concerned with the form of the argument. Your source says, "The reasoning process may be thought of as beginning with input (premises, data, etc.) and producing output (conclusions). In each specific case of drawing (inferring) a conclusion C from premises P1, P2, P3, ..., the details of the actual mental process (how the "gears" work) is not the proper concern of logic, but of psychology or neurophysiology. The proper concern of logic is whether the inference of C on the basis of P1, P2, P3, ... is warranted (correct)."
In this case, we have premiss 1 1)A being with the astral form power exists in the astral plane only. The conclusion is: C) A being who gains the astral form power will cease to exist in other planes. This is valid logic, because if the premiss is true, the the conclusion is. Logic only says that if the premises are true, then the conclusion is true (in deductive logic) or that the conclusion is likely to be true (in inductive logic). Regardless, what the power states is "A critter with the Astral Form power exists in the astral plane only." We're arguing the meaning of the statement, not the logical validity of it, so, we'll go to dictionary.reference.com for the definition of the word only. "1. without others or anything further; alone; solely; exclusively." Exclusively. As in, on the astral plane, and not on any other planes. |
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Jul 28 2007, 06:49 AM
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#28
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The problem is that, when the rules and the fluff are taken as a whole, that statement is completely and totally insane.
Sure, you can argue that the intent of the Astral Form power means exactly what the text states. You can also drill a hole in your skull and suck your brains out with a vacuum cleaner. I would recommend neither. |
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Jul 28 2007, 06:52 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
The problem is that you can't assume that any given reader has enough background to take all of the rules and fluff as a whole.
If the only text you've ever read is the SR4 BBB, is it possible to be reasonable and draw the conclusion that Astral Form does, in fact, make you an exclusively astral being when applied? |
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Jul 28 2007, 06:59 AM
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#30
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Of course you can't assume that any given reader has enough background knowledge of SR to correctly interpret the intent of ambiguous and poorly worded rules. Which is why the whole Astral Form Power was a monumental blunder.
And yes, it could be reasonable for a reader who is ignorant to interpret the rule that way. However, this interpretation can only be reasonable if it is a result of ignorance. It is, therefore, completely invalid when made by people who are not ignorant, and completely incorrect in any event. |
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Jul 28 2007, 07:04 AM
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#31
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Considering that the only stuff that is canon is SR4, SM, and now Aug, its entirely valid to argue that in SR4, previous mechanics have changed, and that this power now does allow a being to go entirely astral (the harmful effects of doing so to said being are up to the GM. IF you're a magician, you're permanately projecting, and you'd better find a body before your time is up. If you can't project, well, your form dissipates immediately, and you die.
Fluff arguments for why this is possible, more magic has come into the world, allowing things previously though impossible. |
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Jul 28 2007, 07:47 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
... or applying the rules as written. You can't expect every player on the planet to have read the novels, previous editions of Shadowrun, etc. In fact, the only thing you should expect is that they've read the SR4 rule books. So far that includes SR4, SM, and AUG. If by those books that's the way the rule reads, then by SR4 rules, it is the correct way. (Even if you and I, who have played previous editions, and have read the novels know better than to think that's the way it should be.) |
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Jul 28 2007, 07:55 AM
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#33
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Making that interpretation is about as reasonable as going up on stage during an elementary school production of The Nativity and sodomizing baby Jesus in front of an audience of several hundred parents, and it is about as legal, as well. The fact that the text of a rule or a law says one thing explicitly does not in any way imply that it actually means what it says.
This is why the judiciary exists, to apply laws. It is also why judges have to learn centuries worth of precedents so that they can correctly apply the law. GMs have less than two decades worth of material to learn. It isn't that great of a requirement in comparison. |
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Jul 28 2007, 08:00 AM
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#34
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Seconded, especially with the possible influx from the FPS Dumpshockers should be careful not to let newcomers get the wrong impression about the Sixth World only from looking at :S RAW :S.
Shadowrun and the Sixth World is so much more then RAW, and love or hate it you have to look at Fourth as building upon previous Editions, not as a standalone product. |
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Jul 28 2007, 08:01 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
LOL. "You wanna play this game? There's two decades worth of material for you to learn, some of which has been out of print for around a decade. Get cracking!" |
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Jul 28 2007, 08:10 AM
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#36
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
No, it's either learn the two decades worth of material or be humble enough to understand that the people who have probably has a better understanding of the game then you do. (Note, that isn't the same thing as saying that they are always right.)
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Jul 28 2007, 08:24 AM
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#37
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Let me remind you that for a standard of discussion to be present at dumpshock, we have to agree on a common ground, and that is RAW. What the rulebooks say, so as to have a basis for correct and incorrect discussions.
The rulebooks says it makes you exist only on the astral plane. Not physical. Period. Whether you think this is good, bad, right or wrong, does not change the fact that it is RAW. :read: |
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Jul 28 2007, 08:26 AM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
... or be humble enough to understand that anything other than the RAW and errata is a house rule, no matter how appropriate it is, and no matter how wise you are in the ways of Shadowrun. |
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Jul 28 2007, 08:34 AM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
To give an example of why I think this argument is bogus, let's apply a little reduction to the absurd:
Claim: We should apply the body of previous edition rules and fluff to define the current edition rules, even in cases where the previous edition rules and fluff are contradicted by the current edition rules. (I think this is a fair summary of the claim, yes?) Claim taken to absurdity: "Well, in previous editions and fluff, hermetic mages were required to bind their spirits. So clearly that means that in SR4, hermetic mages are required to bind their spirits in SR4, despite the rules saying otherwise." (Which is really pretty close to the claim, "Well, in previous editions and fluff, all the documents say this Astral Form stuff couldn't happen, so clearly, this astral form stuff is bullshit.") Fact is, the rules are the rules. You may disagree with them, you may think they fly in the face of all Shadowrun precedent, and you are free to house rule them all you want. But never forget that where you deviate from the rules as written, what you are doing is creating house rules. And I don't have a problem with that. It's pretending otherwise that I have a problem with. |
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Jul 28 2007, 08:55 AM
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#40
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I think a couple of you are confusing some concepts here.
I don't think anyone is disagreeing that as written, the rules of Astral Form are fragged up when combined with Endowment. It's silly that Astral Form is a critter power at all, and a huge loophole was created as a result. It's hardly the only such loophole in the game due to not spending quite enough time thinking things through, but that's neither here nor there. Or in other words, it's been acknowledged by just about everyone -- even FrankTrollman -- that the rules as written are goobed up. That said, this is a discussion forum. Now that a problem has been identified, various individuals are offering up theoretic offerings about what else it could mean, how it can be solved, and even offering house rules based upon not only their own deductions but evidence found in previous editions that have not yet been officially overwritten (but are still not a part of SR4, either). Simpy because the new designers and developers chose to not include something from a past edition, that doesn't mean the "fluff" text or even the ideas behind the rules are now dismissed. Especially on the more philosophical level, such as the laws and limitations of magic in the Sixth World. And that's the entire point of these forums; to discuss the game as a whole. Summary: Yes, it's stupid that Astral Form is a critter power. Yes, it's stupid that Endowment can endow someone with it. Yes, they officially work just fine together. Yes, endowing Astral Form on someone will make them "astral only." Yes, SR4 has it's own set of rules. Yes, past editions have addressed some of these topics. No, that doesn't mean people can't discuss any or all of these topics at once. No, house rules are not official. No, no one is claming that they are. |
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Jul 28 2007, 09:11 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Somebody really ought to teach these game developers to make a relational graph that they consult when making rules. :)
Most of the really obnoxious things I've seen are the result of recursion and looping, which could probably be avoided if they used such graphs. |
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Jul 28 2007, 10:52 AM
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#42
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Lol! I've been looking for a replacement to my long-running sig for a while, thanks! (Doh, stupid forum controls being broken) Seriously, it seems to me that the debait is getting a little heated. I put those *s beside the points that I thought were legal but didn't think would be allowed by GMs in a month of Sundays for a reason. I'd like to keep the discussion away from them and onto potential clever uses of the other powers without obvious game-breaking potential. Perhaps I should have made that clear. Maybe someone could start a dedicated thread? |
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Jul 28 2007, 04:01 PM
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#43
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
No. The rulebook says that you exist only on the Astral. This is a rule with a priority. A priority which is manifestly obviously lower than the various rules which cause you to exist on the physical plane because critters who can temporarily or permanently transfer themselves to the physical plane do not lose the Astral Form Power when they transfer themselves to the physical plane! So, Astral Form is lower priority as a rule than existing on the Physical Plane for whatever reason. If your reason happens to be that you're a normal human and started on the physical plane, that priority is still lower than that. And thus, Astral Form does not "shift" you to the Astral Plane. Not simply because it doesn't say that it shifts you, but because the priority on that particular rule is lower than the priority of rules that put your character on the physical. --- Ta-fucking-da! In order to make the rules as written say that Astral Form bumps critters off the physical if they somehow get there, you have to assume that Astral Form has a rules priority which is much higher than, for example, any of the develpers or freelance authors believe that it has. And that's an unreasonable assumption. And if you have to make an unreasonable assumption to make the rules as written parce out the way you want them to - then the RAW really isn't supporting your case. -Frank |
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Jul 28 2007, 04:43 PM
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#44
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 |
I'd say it actually is seriously obvious even after reading this thread. The people who are making the claim you actually turn into an astral form and poof your physical body disappears are making a strained RAW argument which they probably know is wrong. Taking a single sentence out of context is not a strong raw argument its just a snarky look they wrote something poorly argument. |
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Jul 28 2007, 05:14 PM
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#45
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Exactly.
No, this is just a rule. It can have exceptions, but there are no priorities - stop making things up. I'm perfectly aware that it was not the intention when writing those rule, but so was the posessing Ally spirit... or making your dog read Nietzsche through Endowement. |
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Jul 28 2007, 05:32 PM
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#46
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Not players, of course, just GMs. Obviously, if you want to properly adjudicate, you need to understand both legislative intent and past precedent. This is true for any judicial official, from a Supreme Court Justice, to a sports referee, to a RPG Game Master. Just reading the rulebook is never enough. There is are no circumstances where it is enough. An officiator must understand the meaning, the intent, and the precedents. |
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Jul 28 2007, 05:41 PM
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#47
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Oh, that's good. Because canon has cases where people were shifted completly to the astral... the most notable involved a clown with pointy ears, though. :P
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Jul 28 2007, 05:46 PM
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#48
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Endowing Desire Reflection is a great way for shadowrunners without a face to operate in a pinch.
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Jul 28 2007, 05:50 PM
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#49
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
..makes one kind of thankful that the Glamour Power doesn't exist anymore. As a player, that is. :vegm:
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Jul 29 2007, 07:07 AM
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#50
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Frank, please show me where priorities are defined in the rulebook.
As far as I'm concerned, since astral form is a passive power, it is always on, as per passive powers. Materialization (please point me to another rule that allows anything with astral form to exist on the physical plane) is an active power. When something with an astral from power turns on its materialization power and materializes, you have a rules contradiction. Astral form says they are astral only. Materialization says they are on the physical. Your two choices for interpretation are that astral form supercedes materialization, and they can't materialize ever (in which case, why have the materialization power?) or, materialization supercedes astral form, in which case, as long as materialization is in use, you can exist on both, once it isn't, the being reverts to being astral only, as per its passive (and always "on") astral form power. |
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