'monkey or Tarantula Help me, Or anyone who knows the Matrix Options

[jmecha]

If you were a hacker, would thier be a down side to having pockets full of comlinks, each comlink being full of agents and what not?

The reason I ask is because I know about jack and shit about the matrix despite rereading that chapter a few times, and I am sincerely curious if this multiple comlinks full of agents idea is any good.

I sort of think of each of thoose comlinks as truck loads full of S.C.U.D. vending machines, when you need help in the matrix, just keep calling on disposable assassions until the job is done.

Please anyone with an answer please chime in.

[Tarantula]

And their purpose would be to do what? Define "full of agents", what you're trying to do with it. If you're using it to exploit the (arguably) broken teamwork exploit tests, then sure, it'll work, but its debatable on whether thats allowed or not. If you're using it to exploit the agents only cause load on their home commlink, then again, it'll probably work, but its cheezy as hell. Honestly, imo, if you can run a few dozen agents on commlinks and have them do something useful by connecting to a central node, then goodbye hacking, because the corps will do that too, but their resources are more numerous. (I.E. next time you're hacking, the node you're in has a few dozen IC analyzing it a few dozen times per pass, since you have your few dozen agents, I merely consider it escalation, if it works, then everyone will be doing it.)

[Buster]

Aren't there penalties for running too many programs on the same node? That would limit the effectiveness of hordes of agents (and hordes of hackers too for that matter). In fact, the rating of the agent itself should reduce the effectiveness of the node too (but I don't know if that's RAW).

[jmecha]

huh?

[Buster]

[Tarantula]

Thats the arguement. If I am a hacker, and I'm hacking your metalink running vector xim OS. (Res 1, Sig 2, Fire 1, Sys 1). But I'm running off my commlink thats 6, 6, 6, 6. Running 5 rating 6 programs. Why don't my programs get limited by your commlink that I'm hacking? Because I'm not running them on your commlink. I'm merely connected to it, but they are running on MY commlink. Thusly, I can have each agent running on his own commlink, and hack his own way into yours, and each can do things to your commlink with the same freedom hackers get. They're running on their home commlink, and are merely connected to yours. Thats why its broken.

[jmecha]

So...if the comlink, node or whatever the matrix device maybe in this example had a system of 6....it could only hold (System x 2) 6 subscribers.......so only six hackers could fight over one comlink and or node at once simple because there is no room for additional combatants.

So because of this limitation, there are not countless IC inside of every node?

[Tarantula]

No, then everynode just subscribes to the nearest 12 office supplies. Stapler, printer, keyboard, etc etc. And hacking is utterly useless. Again, because you can't connect because its overwhelmed.

The way around this is to argue it this way. Corp Node A has system of 3 (for a max of 2x3=6) 6 subscribers. It subscribes a matrix connection 1, 4 IC nodes, and 1 Corp Node B.

I want to hack it, a successful hacking attempt subscribes Node A to my commlink (System 6). Subscriptions don't have to be two way, so I subscribe it to me, and I can now go about my way pwning it.

Thusly, the IC subscribe the node they're protecting to themselves, so they can access it . And you get infinite IC/agents again.

You either get no connections cause they're full, or infinite agents/IC/personas. Which is it?

[Ravor]

Basically there are two different view on how Agents work, in one view yes, you can run an Agent using Node A's resources but have that Agent present and operating on Node B. In which case you have to ask questions like why doesn't every corp have node after node whoes only purpose is to run IC on the rest of the system.

The other view which I happen to share is that Agents have to use the resources of the node they are present on in which case nodes aren't going to be running hoards of IC because of the Responce drop. However then you have to ask how does Exploiting work, well personally I figure that the Agent gets to use Node A's resources while hacking into Node B but once in Node B then they have to use Node B's resources.

Deckers don't have this limitation because ... well ... they have a persona and Agents don't, or something to that effect.

As for using the hoards of Agents to be a super Decker, well, that's been hashed over so many times that I just suggest running a search on the topic.

[Tarantula]

I never really looked into agents much because of all the babble about the super smith hoard. Now, looking, I've found this line.
"Agents use the Response attribute of whatever node they are run on; this means that the attributes of an agent operating independently may vary as it moves from node to node."SR4, 227.

A lot can be taken from this line. 1) That agents are run on whatever node they are currently accessing (unless piggybacking as an active program on a deckers persona). 2) This means they count as an active program (as well as their active programs) against that node. 3) Therefore, the agent hoard is only good for bombarding IC nodes with, as the sudden appearance of so many programs will almost immediately halt the system through response degredation.

Therefore, agent hoards are good for many different tasks at once, or for halting systems through resource hogging. Other than that, they're pathetic and expensive.

[jmecha]

So in short...there is no real explination and or rule currently on print that explains why or even states why this is not possible, but it is generally accepted amoungst the Dumpshock communuity here that giant swarms on swarms of PC Agents vs Corp Hackers and what not is just ridiculous and sort of game breaking.

right or wrong?

[Tarantula]

Actually, though the rule is vague, it does state that agents RUN on the node they are operating in. Unless they are operating as a program of a persona. THusly, there is a rule that explains why it isn't possible, because going past 1 (decent agent) or 2 (pathetic agents) even the best systems start becoming worthless, and quickly.

[Ravor]

Welcome to the Martix 2.0, just pray to the Spirits that it actually gets fixed in Unwired.

[Buster]

I never played a hacker, but my understanding was that the hacker's persona is running on his commlink and the agent's persona is running on the node. The agent is free roaming and is essentially re-spawned on each node it exists on. The hacker's persona can only be spawned from his commlink.

Am I not misinformed? Was I not informed correctly?

[Buster]

And that would explain the difference between IC and an agent. IC is a network appliance that spawns it's persona somewhere on the system (like a hacker) and can roam the entire system without degrading each node it is on. This is why you would be smarter to run IC to protect your commlink instead of an agent.

[Tarantula]

Yes buster. Thats roughly correct, however if a hacker is running the agent on his persona, then its always running on the hackers home node, much as any of the hackers other programs are. If the agent is free roaming, it is respawned on each node independently.

[Buster]

I didn't think an agent could be run on a persona, it had to be run on a node. When an agent is running on the hacker's commlink, it's only protecting/affecting his commlink node, not the node the hacker's persona is currently playing around in. Hence my IC/Agent post I made a second before your post.

[Fortune]

[Tarantula]

"Agents can be loaded into your persona like other programs (taking a Complex Action), allowing the agent to accompany you to any nodes you access."SR4, 227.
They can.

[Buster]

The difference is the sentence right before the sentence you quoted. And you don't "convert" Agents to IC anymore you can convert Pilots to Agents.

[Tarantula]

Fortune: Agents are IC, and IC are agents. IC is just the moniker for corps defensive agents. Hackers and spiders are much the same, except their real people. Difference is the name, not the abilities.

Buster: Persona's use their home commlinks ratings to run. Thusly, an agent running on your persona still uses your home commlinks response. However, the agent himself is a program, plus any other programs you want him to run, plus the ones you want yourself to run, and its already almost worthless anyway.

[Ravor]

Reading the description of IC, they are basically Agents with a certain program loadout, a legacy term so to speak.

Unless Unwired changes things of course.

[Fortune]

Then how would the Hacker go about acquiring/programming the IC (I still see no mechanical difference between the two) that you suggest he use on his Commlink instead of Agents?

[Buster]

[Fortune]