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 Post-Augmentation all-biological sammies, all-bio sammies |
 Jul 28 2007, 11:32 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 6-September 02 Member No.: 3,234  |
Well, after taking the sum of SR4 and Augmentation into account, would you deem a optimized sammie is reasonable and viable that is built only using biological augmentations ? Either doing a limited exception for senseware or not.
I ask this b/c, flavorwise, I always strongly fancied biological genegineered superhumans a la Dark Angel, but just as strongly I always strongly disliked chromed 80's cyberware. Would you deem, SR wise(wo)men, that by SR4 the day of the all-bio augmented (super)human is eventually aborning ? Since the issue is just about cutting-edge technological state of the art, please assume budget limits and availability are really not an immediate concern, even if we may discuss them as a sidenote issue. Comparison of the optimized all-bio sammie with the optimized all-magic mystic adept may be interesting, too. Please discuss. |
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Jul 28 2007, 11:39 PM
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#2
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The problem with ruling out cyberware altogether is that bioware has no way to replicate things like a Commlink and radio.
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Jul 29 2007, 12:01 AM
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#3
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
That's what eyeware (including smartlinks that work just as good as implants) and earware, standard commlinks, skinlinks, and pretty much every other thing you really, really need is available without cybernetics. In SR4, a non-cybernetic combat type character is much more plausible than ever before.
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Jul 29 2007, 12:03 AM
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#4
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
you could have a fairly good all-bioware sammy.
but the cyberware sammy is going to be able to do cool stuff that the bioware sammy can only dream of. i, personally, tend to think of skillwires (in particular) to be a particularly common feature of sammies, but if you just define 'sammy' as 'someone who is really good at killing people' as opposed to 'someone who is good at killing people and who is also the team swiss-army-knife', then yeah, you could make a very viable sammy with just bioware as far as implants. theoretically. like, if your character is able to go scrooge mcducking in their moneybin, that is. (certainly the pure bioware sammy is a lot harder to detect) |
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Jul 29 2007, 12:20 AM
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#5
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Agreed (and saved me saying it). But the new cyberlimbs mean that if you want to go the tank route, cyber is still the best by far. Not that the tank route is that effective in a game filled with stealth and high explosives. ;) |
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Jul 29 2007, 12:24 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 6-September 02 Member No.: 3,234 |
You are right about the specific point of skillwires allowing unparalleled amounts of jack of all trades skill flexiblity (as opposed to enhancing some handful of key skills or skill groups). But if we want to branch out from pure combat effectiveness a bit, and discuss augmentation of intellectual or social capabilties, maybe the picture is not so clear-cut. I mean, e.g. what about the comparison of intellect-enhancing bioware and cyberware, and a character (again, putting budgetary qualms aside, as we talking about cutting edge) that has a mix of combat, intellect, and/or "face" augmentations ?
If this be the main concern, bioware always wins out by landslide. Barring being arrested for other charges and being forced to undergo in-depth medical checks, the all-bio sammie is essentially free from worries about being discovered with illegal augmentations, and can laugh off environmental checks for cyberware. |
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Jul 29 2007, 04:29 AM
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#7
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Well that may or may not change with some of the new toys ARSE brings us.
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Jul 29 2007, 04:43 AM
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#8
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...the real problem is the character does not start with enough resources to be effective going all bio. |
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Jul 29 2007, 04:47 AM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Depends on what you need. Are we looking to spend as much essence as possible, or do we just want to cover the basics?
Muscle toner, muscle aug, and synaptic boosters are a damn good start, and that is totally affordable. |
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Jul 29 2007, 05:02 AM
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#10
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...Synaptic Boost II: 160,000 :nuyen:
...Muscle Augmentation II: 14,000 :nuyen: ...Muscle Toner II: 16,000 :nuyen: ...OrthoSkin II: 60,000 :nuyen: (based on my original bio Sammy Randi Rhodes). Total: 250,000 Out of 250,000 (provided you put in 50 BPs, doesn't leave a lot for other implants or gear. Out of the box, the all Cyber Sammy is much better. |
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Jul 29 2007, 05:20 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 5-February 05 Member No.: 7,053 |
Ditch the muscle augmentation (Strength? Pfeh!) and switch the Orthoskin to Bone Density Augmentation, and you've got plenty of room for minimal other starting stuff. Alternatively, toss in a platelet factory for soaky goodness.
Sure, not as powerful as some possible cyberbunny builds, but more than enough to be effective, and with an all new dimension of subtlety. Not that it's tricky to circumvent MADs. Always the first thing hackers go for in our games. |
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Jul 29 2007, 05:52 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
I'd feel better about this post if you qualified the term "better"; because while he (the cyber-sammy) may be a higher-average-stat guy who's a more efficient killing machine, he's also lower-essence (yay lack of healing!) and shows up on scanners more clearly than small cars. Bioware may be mildly non-human, but at least it's biological. |
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Jul 29 2007, 06:29 AM
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#13
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,598 Joined: 24-May 03 Member No.: 4,629 |
On teh matter of scanning like a car, I suddenly wonder if Augmentation has any sort of "Stealth" options for cyber... Alpha, Beta, and Delta are harder to detect than normal cyberware, but I wonder if there's something to hide it better. "Imroved Concealability" or the like.
... Hrm. |
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Jul 29 2007, 07:16 AM
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#14
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
[deleted - double post]
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Jul 29 2007, 07:20 AM
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#15
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...basically this was in reference to combat ability out of the box. Yes essence is more of an issue but a totally cyber sammy can get more under the reduced chargen resource cap than a total bio based character due to the lower :nuyen: cost compared to bioware. As I mentioned in another thread, the costs of Cyber were reduced pretty much across the board while the costs for bio remained the same, or in some cases, actually increased. Meanwhile, the starting maximum resource cap was cut by 75%. Taking this into account, the "relative" cost of bio at chargen increased by a factor of 3. Now combining of both cyber and bio would be more efficent than just going the total bio route alone. |
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Jul 29 2007, 02:50 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 6-September 02 Member No.: 3,234 |
This is theoretically possible, but I rather doubt it, since Augmentation seems to imply that the current state of effective day-to-day survelliance invisibility is not going to be changed for bioware and geneware. I quote from Augmentation, p. 56
This seems to imply that barring the truly exceptional, super-cutting-edge security system in rare locations like the apartments of a CEO, current state of the art does not allow for MAD-like environmental scanners that cops or security guards can use to detect bioware from a distance or at casual expection or in normal security systems, which is what shadowrunners would really have to worry about, and would seriously affect the balance between cyber and bio. If Joe Cop or Jane Corporate Guard wish to know whether a random person has bioware, they have to arrest them, bring them to a medical facility, and have them undergo an expensive, complex, and time-consuming array of medical tests. IMO, in all likelihood Arsenal may bring some kind of dedicated forensic bio/geneware scanners which may somewhat facilitate the examination of prisoners, but they will be stuff you can use on a person under custody, not something you can use for casual inspection at a checkpoint. |
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Jul 29 2007, 05:02 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Since Augmentation specifies that some bioware won't show up even under detailed medical analysis, I'm fair sure it won't get detected at airport security unless it mkes you look like a freak.
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Jul 29 2007, 05:06 PM
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#18
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
..and if Bioware shows up, they can already detail the guy that implanted your Cyberware from the way it's implanted. :P
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Jul 29 2007, 11:56 PM
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#19
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...this is part of the reason why I think they messed up giving Bone Lacing (which would be relatively easy to detect) an "F" legality and Bone Density (which slips "under the radar") only an "R" legality. I have swapped the legality ratings between the two for my campaigns. |
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Jul 30 2007, 12:08 PM
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#20
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Target Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 14-January 06 Member No.: 8,159 |
As far as the legality of Bone Lacing procedures, I think that it's (F)orbidden because the process itself has no "socially" redeeming features. It is, so far as I can tell, only used to increase combat longevity.
Personally, I prefer going the bioware route with as little cyber as possible. I prefer subtlety because the obvious bad-asses will always be hassled by the cops for jandering while bad-ass. :grinbig: Then again, I try to RP my samurai as being a cultured assasin, as opposed to a sociopathic gun-bunny that relies solely on either violence or the threat of violence to communicate. One inspiration in that was the 'Johnny Mnemonic" movie, where all his mods were disguised to look like something else to the security scanners. Wired Reflexes = Easily scanned. Smartgun Link could concievably be explained as a dyslexia treatment, datajacks are everywhere... I don't have to be the strongest, or the fastest, or the best shot, or the most heavily armored.. I have to be smarter than my opposition, sneakier, and never, ever, give my opponents a stand-up fight unless the odds are stacked heavily in my favor. |
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Jul 30 2007, 12:31 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 249 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando Member No.: 815 |
I'd say bone lacing could have a legitimate use for bikers, racers and various Mountain Dew chugging "extreme" sport athletes.
I ever tell you guys the story of the skater with the rebuilt jaw and the drunken me with a broken right hand? :dead: And how exactly is a smartgun link a plausible dyslexia treatment? I'd think that could be (well, largely at least) treated with an image link and a dedicated sub-processor. Which begs the question: Just how well trained in recognizing the (supposedly esoteric) physical structures of various bits of ware are security guards in the 70s? |
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Jul 30 2007, 12:46 PM
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#22
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
You do have to be the strongest, fastest, the best shot and the most heavily armored as well as smarter, sneakier and never give your opponents a stand up fight even if the odds are stacked heavily in your favor. And this includes your fixer and johnson. |
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Jul 30 2007, 03:35 PM
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#23
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
The street sam needs cyber by design. You simply can´t be one without chrome.
Only-bio is possible now, but has few advantages if one considers the new cyberware-prices. I personally would have my eyes replaced just to get thermo, magnification and a killer eye colour. Most office-types will have internal comlinks that can´t be stolen. The most important cyber does not endanger you on stealth missions, so why shouldn´t you get it. All other functions can and should be replicated by bioware. On the skillwires: be prepared for investigation. In my game, security officers WILL check for some skills that are not for everyone to posses as software. Demolitions, Gunnery etc are highly suspicious. |
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Jul 30 2007, 04:01 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 251 Joined: 29-April 02 Member No.: 2,659 |
How would they do that? It's just data sitting in storage, indistinguishable from any other data unless you have read access to it. And if random guards can read all our sensitive files I think you have bigger problems. |
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Jul 30 2007, 04:56 PM
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#25
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
If I was in the 2070 Department of Homeland Security, I´d be pushing for access to peoples skillwires. The "in my game"-qualifier is there for a reason. Their rights would be limited to getting a list of skills/verify that the skill description is right. Maybe not a useful measure as it can be circumvented, but that is not stopping them nowadays.
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