Essence Holes, Bioware vs. Cyberware Options

[Ol' Scratch]

I noticed something odd in the rules this evening, was hoping to find some clarification.

Essence loss is split between bioware and cyberware; both are tracked seperately, and the whole subtracts from the character's actual Essence score. The reason they're tracked seperately is because the one that's smaller is halved for purposes of that final subtraction. So, what happens if down the line those numbers flip-flop?

Say you start with 1.0 points of bioware and 2.0 points of cyberware. After the game begins, you install a few pieces of bioware and now have 3.0 points of Bioware and 2.0 points of cyberware.

Using that example, does the new bioware have its Essence loss cut in half to maintain the original values? Do you suddenly have an Essence Hole in the cyberware departartment since it's now cut in half (becoming 1.0 of implants filling the original 2.0 hole)? Something else entirely?

In other words, is your Essence now 2.5 (cyberware -2.0 and bioware -1.5), 2.0 (cyberware -1.0 and bioware -3.0), or 1.0 (cyberware -2.0 with a 1.0 hole and bioware -3.0)?

[Da9iel]

I'd always assumed that any "Essence hole" is only from the total, and the new Essence is 2 (Cyberware -1.0 and Bioware -3.0). I don't see any reason to make it more complicated with separate cyber holes and bioware holes.

Heh heh. Heh heh. He said "Holes." Reminds me of the PI thread you know and love so much.

[Dancer]

I just figure that removal of 'ware removes its Essence cost, but your Essence never increases. So the difference between your current Essence and (6-current essence cost) is your 'essence hole', but no special rules are required for it.

[Ol' Scratch]

I believe it's Augmentation that discusses the holes (I read it just the other night but I don't remember exactly where).

My question isn't about the holes, though, despite the name of the topic. It's about the phenomenon of how Essence loss due to cyberware and bioware can change just by getting more of one than the other, and how do you apply that change to the character.

Here's another example. Say you have 0.90 worth of bioware and 1.10 worth of cyberware. Your Essence is now 4.45 since the 0.90 bioware cost was halved since it was the smaller value. Later you get a 0.30 piece of bioware installed, raising the total to 1.20.

So in that example, what's your current Essence now that, officially, your Essence loss due to cyberware is halved instead of bioware? Did you just magically gain Essence only to have it removed because of the mechanic? Do you have a cyberware Essence Hole with 0.55 Essence worth of space you can fill for free? Or something else?

I'm leaning towards the latter in my reading, but wanted opinions and hopefully rules clarifications in case I missed something on the subject.

[Wakshaani]

Well, if it was .9 Bio and 1.1 Cyber, generating 1.55 loss, when you added the extra .3 Bio, making it 1.2 and 1.1, your new total would be 1.2 + .55 = 1.75.

Essence isn't modified on the fly, only the final tally ... It loses the 'Flavor; once you hit final calculation.

This means that you could, in theory, take the original .9/1.1 guy, take out all teh cyberware, leaving only .9 of the 1.55 essence hole used, and add .65 essence of Bioware in that empty spot.

Basicly, body disruption is body disruption, the two "Flavors" are only kept track of before final cost is figured.

...

Don't overthink; it falls apart like a magic trick if you worry overmuch. :)

[Ol' Scratch]

[Ravor]

You know, I think you may be overthinking things here, why not just calculate your new Essense the same way that you did the old using the new Bioware vs Cyberware Values?


As for "why" it works, well I figure that it may be something that the doctors themselves don't fully understand, they just know that it does, or maybe it's caused from the metahuman's Pattern warping itself around the greatest intruder.


Or maybe it doesn't really work that way In-Character at all, perhaps the savings is simply caused by the fact that cyberware and bioware cause slightly different types of stress upon the body/soul and Essense is a broader term then it used to be in older Editions.

*Edit*

I must be slowing down in my old age. :cyber:

[Ol' Scratch]

While I understand the KISS principle you guys are discussing, it does lead to a potential problem. Which, again, is due to Essence Holes.

Say you have 1.10 cyberware and 0.90 bioware again. Then you get that hot 0.30 bioware implant later. Even later, you remove all the bioware and cyberware, leaving an Essence Hole specific to each type. Even later, you decide to get some new implants to fill the holes and in the process wind up with more cyberware than bioware.

How is that resolved?

[Ravor]

I don't think you need to resolve anything because in the end you are left with a single Essense Hole, not two so you can fill that hole with anything that you want, cyberware, bioware, DNA tampering, ect...

[Ol' Scratch]

Whichever book mentioned it (pretty sure it was Augmentation) was pretty specific about the holes being unique to each type of implant.

[Ravor]

Hmm, after searching through AUG and having found the section you are talking about I've decided that it is a very stupid rule and I'll be happily ignoring it in all of my campaigns. :cyber:

[l33tpenguin]

I thought the hole was only applicable at character generation. I.E. any cyberware added after the fact will remove its full essence.

least.. that was my understanding. I'm still a n00b, though :(

[Ol' Scratch]

While the new rules on the subject allow more interesting possibilities, I think it would have been better if they had just decided that only Bioware was halved (or better, simply lower all Bioware Essence losses in half and not even have such a rule). That would have eliminated anything related to this issue, I'm sure.

I mean, does it really make sense that one impacts your body more than the other depending on which one you install the most of? And then suddenly having that change completely just because you install one more later on?

[Ravor]

Well I figured that from an IC perspective it wasn't so much that one suddenly started impacting you more then the other as it was the Physical/Pattern changes caused by the implants in general was able to limit the overall damage, and the OOC rule was just simulating that.

[FrankTrollman]

Honestly I never wrote a distinction between Cyber- and Bio- Essence Holes. I don't know where that came from and it makes the accounting fall apart.

Essence Holes are supposed to be generic, and I seriously am perplexed as to where that came from.

-Frank

[Ol' Scratch]

Thanks a lot and really glad to hear that. :) I'll add that to my list of house rules until it makes it to errata (if ever).

[Ranneko]

I would expect that the values of the holes flip-flop too.

And that you would add the relevant holes to each side in order to determine whether bio or cyber is higher.

[Ravor]

Ok, but that would require a hell of alot of record keeping as well as prove a greater limit on the amount of implants someone can get.

You'd need to keep track of:

Bioware Essence Loss
Bioware Essence Hole
Cyberware Essence Loss
Cyberware Essence Hole
Non-usable Essence Loss

All to figure out your current Essence Value after each surgery, never mind the fact that those figures keep flip-flopping around depending on what type of implant you install at any given time.

Bah to that I say! I'll gladly take FrankTrollman's word on what his intent was as an author.

[FrankTrollman]

It's actually worse than that. Since as written the holes are separate and defined when items are removed, you can actually "bank" your holes while Cyber is the higher value at full price and then "spend" the Essence Hole when you get the cost break for double value.

Indeed, since the Essence Hole cost is currently written to subtract from the cost it then doesn't impact whether you're paying half or not - and you can end up getting the 50% off on the group which should be more expensive just by getting some put in, ripping it out, and then getting it put back in after getting some bio mods.

I think that someone thought they were closing a loophole at a late stage of editting - but they were not doing that.

-Frank

[Ranneko]

So if you have a single essence hole system and you have say

3.5 essence worth of cyber and
3 essence worth of bio to start
Total Essence loss to start 5 (3.5 + 3/2)

And you were to take out 1 essence of cyber so you have how much essence in the hole?
Do you have:
(2.5/2 + 3) + 1 essence hole = 5.25 E of stuff [And so by removing cyber I have somehow managed to lose essence]
Or do you then have:
(2.5/2 + 3) + 0.75E hole = 5E of stuff, despite having taken out 1E of cyber?

If you have the 2 hole system like the way I see it you would end up with:
Essence loss due to cyber + cyber hole = (2.5 +1) = 3.5
Essence loss due to bio = 3
So final essence loss still equals 5.

All of the flipflopping happens after the totals are done. You can't bank essence to one side or the other because the hole shrinks and expands as everything else does.

What I am more curious about is the revitalization therapy.

If I have less cyber than bio, and I undergo that therapy and choose to shrink the cyber hole, how much does it shrink by?

[apple]

[Synner]

The Essence hole decision was made after various discussions following several playtest reports indicated groups had problems with the "single" Essence hole approach given that bioware and cyberware Essence loss totals are themselves dynamic - the main issue being that the "dominant" Essence loss total can change in play forcing you to recalculate total Essence loss.

Ranneko has pointed out the most common "problem" indicated and after running the current writeup past the playtesters this was the preferred option given that all the "flip-flopping" is done before Total Essence loss is calculated.

Under the Augmentation rules removing an implant does not change your Essence loss (sub)total and your total Essence loss is in fact unaltered until you implant something new. You just gain a "credit" towards your next implant. This just means that you make a note the size of the hole/credit next to your ongoing cyberware or bioware tally.

Please note that the SR4 rules already require that you keep ongoing tallies of your cyberware (now + nanocybernetics) and bioware (now + certain geneware) losses during play, and that in cases when these change, the dominant (sub)total can shift in play (normally when a new implant is added) - so recalculation of total Essence Loss was already built into the system.

[Ol' Scratch]

I think you're missing the big point here, Synner. Under those rules as written as and as you describe, players can "cheat" the system and get huge Essence discounts on items simply by removing and placing them back inside their bodies after getting an upgrade with the opposite type of implant if it causes the flip-flop to occur. That, in turn, gives you a "hole" you can now fill with even more implants. Wash, rinse, repeat.

If it were a single Essence hole based upon the total amount of Essence loss you've suffered, that loophole is completely removed. At least I couldn't find a way to do it that way.

[Ranneko]

[Rotbart van Dain...]

It simply contradicts the basic rules:

Bob has 3 points worth of Cyber, and 2 points worth of Bio. Thus, he has lost 4 (3+(2/2) points, giving him Essence 2.
He now removes 2 points of Cyber and installs 1 Point of Bio.

BBB: He now has 1 point of Cyber and 3 points Bio. Thus, he lost 3,5 ((1/2)+3) points, his Essence still being 2.

Augmention: He now has 1 point of Cyber, 2 points Cyber-hole and 3 points Bio. Thus, he lost... what exactly? His Cyber now counts less, as it is below Bio, but he can't use the created hole since it's attributed to Cyber, and Cyber once created a 3 point loss total... so Bio deducts from fresh Essence: 3+3 points, reducing his Essence to 0. Bye Bob. :dead:

The latter method simply doesn't add up to the original rules and is more complicated.