 Essence Holes, Bioware vs. Cyberware |
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 Jul 29 2007, 12:18 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827  |
So the cybernetic Samurai is not intended to be able to change to a Biosamurai? The sample samurai from the BBB has a starting essence of 0.8 and 5.2 essence points worth of cybernetic implants. He could implant bioware around 1.4 worth of essence. Image he is doing that: 5.2 cybernetic essence loss (which gives the character a cybernetic essence hole of 5.2) + 1.4 bioware essence loss = 5.2 + 0.7 (wich gives the character a bioware essence hole of 0.7), for a total essence loss of 5.9, out of a maximum of 6 essence. The samurai changes his opinion and has only one cyberimplant worth of 1.2 cybernetic essence loss (for example because he is upgrading or downgrading his cyberware). Now his essence costs changes to 1.4 bio-essence and 0.6 cyber-essence. The 0.6 cyber-essence can use the cybernetic essence hole, but the sudden increase of the bioware-essence will push him over the edge and the samurai will die. Or did i misunderstand / miscalculated the rules? Considering starting resources and many GMS hesitating to give out huge payments to the characters it seems to me that this limits the development of cybernetic characters. SYL |
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Jul 29 2007, 12:21 PM
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#27
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Mystery Archaeologist Group: Members Posts: 2,906 Joined: 19-September 05 From: The apple tree Member No.: 7,760 |
This seems to be more proof on how bad the build for the example sammie is...
I don't have the book yet but someone mentioned a Rejuvenation therapy which sounded like a way of getting essence back. |
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Jul 29 2007, 12:28 PM
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#28
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Jackknife Sue has 2.4 Essence lost to bioware and 2 Essence lost to cyberware [(bioware) 2.4 + (cyberware)1 (2/2) = Essence total of loss of 3.4 and Essence Rating of 2.6)
She had muscle augmentation 2 (bioware) and after a windfall run she decides to go for a pair of tricked out cyberarms (cyberware) making the muscle augmentation redundant. So she takes out the muscle augmentation (no change to the 2.4 Essence hole in the bioware subtotal or the overall Essence loss total and Essence) leaving her with a 0.4 Essence hole to fill in her bioware subtotal (noting the "credit" next to her bioware tally as "0.4 Essence unused"). She then implants two cyberlimbs with an Essence cost of 2. The player makes the necessary adjustments to Sue's cyberware losses tally raising it to 4 (making it the dominant subtotal). Sue's bioware subtotal remains unaltered at 2.4 (though she still has that 0.4 Essence hole/credit to use on bioware). Only after changes are made her total Essence loss is recalculated to 5.2 [(bioware)1.2 (2.4/2) + (cyberware) 4]. Sue now has a 0.4 Essence hole and can now spend part, all, or more than that 0.4 on bioware (or geneware). The downside of the system is that it makes shifting a heavily cybered character to bioware more difficult - though not impossible thanks to Revitalization. For those unhappy with this limitation I suggest using Frank's initial writeup as a House rule. |
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Jul 29 2007, 12:28 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
Gene therapy costs hundred of thousands to millions of ¥ and take months to years to complete. SYL |
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Jul 29 2007, 12:39 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
Thanks Synner and Frank for the feedback: 1) So you are not taking the actual essence loss, but the cybernetic and bioware essence hole for deciding the primary and secondary essence loss? 2) Shifting from heavy cyber to heavy bioware becomes not only difficult, it becomes almost impossible. If you had heavy cybernetic essence loss, you have a life long cybernetic essence hole and you cannot change into heavy bioware because you don´t have room for a large bioware essence hole. 3) IMHO, Revitalization is not really an option, not considering the costs, the time and the description as a SOTA recent medical breakbrough. If you are playing "Lofyr, my favorite Johnson" or "Damien, old pal", then yes, you have the resources (but not the time) to change your essence holes. And where is the fun if the character is taken out of the game for a half year, considering that awakened characters are not that limited in development ... I think a "removed implants just create a "credit"/ essence hole ready to be filled again" would have been enough, especially regarding the balance to awakend characters and sometimes huge costs for implantes AND the new costs for implant surgery. SYL |
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Jul 29 2007, 12:46 PM
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#31
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Back to AwakenedRun, I guess - good implant's cost enough, needing to pay large sums to even be able to install them leaves the Mundane with no money to get them. Unless, of course, you start as non-cybered Mr. Lucky... Ware ist a waste of good BP, anyway.
Or simply stay with the BBB rules, that had an auto-adjusting hole since you recalculated from scratch. |
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Jul 29 2007, 12:54 PM
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#32
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Under the BBB there is no reference as to whether there is an Essence hole or not and there is no reference as to what happens when you remove an implant. The Augmentation rules specifically states you recalculate the subtotals before calculating the total Essence loss. So to correct you under Augmentation, Bob keeps his 3 point Essence loss cyberware (sub)total (including a 2 point hole) and raises his bioware Essence losses (sub)total to 3 too. Since the subtotals are both 3, the GM could call it either way on which one is "dominant", but only now is the total Essence loss is recalculated. The final Essence loss is 3 (for whichever subtotal is dominant) + 1.5 (for half of the other subtotal) = 4.5. leaving Bob with an Essence of 1.5 (ie. no bye bye Bob) and an Essence hole/"credit" of 2 points to his cyberware subtotal still available for implanting. Just to carry through on the example: months later Bob implants 2.2 worth of new cyberware using up that (cyberware) Essence hole and increasing his cyberware subtotal to 3.2 (making it once again dominant). The two Essence subtotals are compared again (now 3.2 for cyberware implants, 3 for bioware implants) and total Essence is recalculated = total Essence loss is now 4.7 giving leaving Bob with an Essence rating of 1.3. Apple's evaluation is correct though. This makes shifting from cyber to bio more complicated, so make your choices wisely. |
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Jul 29 2007, 01:02 PM
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#33
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
If you want to nitpick on that kind of details, there isn't even a reference what happens when the focus shifts, as that requires you to recalculate from 6. So recalculating from 6 (or lower, if drained) was the SOP people managed to perform anyway, and combined with 'no Essence back' it worked with removing implants without even the need of defining Essence holes. |
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Jul 29 2007, 01:04 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
You don´t really have a choice. Starting with bioware is extremly cost-intensive which leaves you with two options: start as a weak mundane character with little bioware and little cyberware and hope for a generous GM or start with cyberware and be never be able to change to heavy bioware implants because of the cybernetic essence hole. SYL |
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Jul 29 2007, 01:09 PM
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#35
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Here's how the loophole works.
At character creation Jackknife Sue has 2.40 in bioware and 2.00 in cyberware. This is recorded as such:
Cyberware: 2.00. After her first run she decides she doesn't want to by a cyberfreak anymore, so she chooses to have everything removed on a whim. She now has the following recorded:
Cyberware: 0.00 with 2.00 hole.
Cyberware: 2.50 (hole removed) End result: She just got a delta-grade cyberarm for only 0.30 Essence instead of 0.50. If the hole worked off of the total Essence reduction rather than being calculated individually, this phenomenon would never occur. And please don't nitpick the deltagrade aspect; I just used that as an easily calculated way of adding a 0.50 cyberarm 'cause I'm lazy. :P This can also be done with much smaller numbers, allowing for larger and larger amounts of "free" implants by the time you get to the low range of final Essence scores. |
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Jul 29 2007, 01:10 PM
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#36
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
The SR4 and Augmentation rules state that you keep separate tallies of cyberware and bioware essence losses and only after each is calculated do you calculate total Essence loss (total Essence loss being = full value of the higher total + half value of the lower total). Total Essence loss is calculated after all adjustments to the subtotals are made (because of this you won't normally see huge shifts to the total Essence loss unless you're implanting something seriously Essence intensive to one total or another).
With the Essence costs of cyber and bio in SR4 you get a lot more flex than you think, particularly if you start calculate in higher grades. I suggest you try it out before writing it off. The difficulties you're noting tend to arise when you've got more than 4.5 Essence committed to one subtotal or the other.
Revitalization is indeed quite expensive and time consuming (recovering a 0.1 cyberware Essence hole takes 1 month and 95k nuyen iirc).
On the other hand it means that augmented characters who take a heavily cybered path or a heavily bio-oriented path are committed to one or the other and have different strengths and development options.
Enough problems cropped up with the single Essence hole approach during playtesting that we decided otherwise. As a gamemaster it is entirely up to you to use the single Essence hole option Frank suggested. |
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Jul 29 2007, 01:14 PM
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#37
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
I'm curious: What problems? That's how everyone, up until Augmention, played. Now, suddenly all modified characters are wrong and their heads pop. Somehow I got the feeling that the need for the implant book to subtely screw over cybered characters was carried over from SR3... |
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Jul 29 2007, 01:21 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
What are the exact strengths and development options heavy cybernetic or bioware users have, considering implant costs, grade costs (and you need higher grades because of cyberscanners and the combination of bioindex and essence loss), essence hole rules and surgery costs? Because these costs are quite high, especially with SR4 trying to bring the game back to street level, which many GMs see as a reason the tune down the payments. IMHO characters with lot of implants are sometimes truly handicaped, not by the world but by the way rules work in SR. But thats another discussion, so I am on my way out. Thanks for the feedback. SYL |
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Jul 29 2007, 01:31 PM
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#39
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Ranneko actually pointed out the most common point of confusion:
This is compounded when later modifications are made to either subtotal due to implantation and/or to the final Essence total via drainage.
I just proved your calculations in the Bob example were wrong (ie. his head doesn't pop). Maybe you could provide another example where heads pop (in fact we found it quite hard to make the heads of starting characters and starting character + 100k nuyen pop). Problems do arise when investment in one subtotal rises over 5, but because of the way total Essence loss is calculated this is rarely a problem in terms of making heads pop (though it might limit the character's options in the future - per my reply to Apple). Note that the banking aspect was noted and taken into account, it was considered to partially offset the loss of flexibility in changing from cyberintensive to biointensive augmentations (though in practice the nuyen costs restrict that shift in most characters anyway).
I beg to disagree. A cybered character with 4.4 Essence loss to cyberware and 3.0 Essence loss to bioware is very serious business. A character who goes over the 4.5 mark in one Essence subtotal is seriously commited to either bio or cyber but given the options available with high end cyber and nanocyber and high end bio + genetech they are by no means gimped. |
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Jul 29 2007, 01:46 PM
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#40
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Out of all your posts, I still don't see how a generic Essence hole system was either more difficult or more prone to abuse than the current system. What are these complications you keep mentioning? How is it easier to maintain in the bookkeeping department? How is it in any way, shape, or form better when it requires more notes and is more prone to breaking?
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Jul 29 2007, 01:52 PM
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#41
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That's not a problem. You noted down the final Essence value. Than you remove something. It stay's the same. Then you install something. You recalculate and deduct from 6(minus drain). You have to recalculate and deduct from 6 anyway as soo as the predominant factor changes. The result is still higher than the noted Essence value? It stays the same.
That's because it isn't really an Essence hole, but an Cyber hole... missed that, sorry.
In fact, with Augmention, they die once they exchange 4 Cyber for 4 Bio. And 4 points of standard cyber is nearly nothing, given the essence costs for wired reflexes and muscles. If you want to play a Street Samurai, spending 4 point on cyberware will barely get you started... but 4 points of bioware are out of the question at chargen, because you can't pay that - so you bought that good stuff later. With the rules of the BBB, that was no problem, and thus, done... and now, everyone who did that suddenly explodes. Sorry, but that sucks. Better build an Adept with Type O quality.
Now it's nearly impossible. Thanks.
Disagree all you like, but Bioware ist the SotA stuff you can't really get at chargen - so your only option to ever play a Bio Samurai is to start low on implants... meaning you probably won't survive to get payed. |
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Jul 29 2007, 02:37 PM
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#42
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,578 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
It makes perfect sense that shifting technical modifications to the body would be difficult, time consuming and expensive. If you commit wholesale to one radical transformation over another, then you are committed.
The river of tears being cried because of this issue over magic versus mundane are crocodile tears. Try shifting from adept to magician a couple of years after you enter the shadows. |
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Jul 29 2007, 02:51 PM
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#43
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
You are assuming the single Essence hole leads to less accounting, it doesn't. Typical issue raised by the single Essence hole system: Jackknife Sue has 2.4 Essence losses in bioware and 3.2 Essence losses to cyberware. This means a 4.4 Essence loss total [(cyberware) 3.2 + (bioware) 1.2 (2.4/2)] and an Essence rating of 1.6. She decides to remove some 1.2 Essence worth of cyberware, openning a "generic" Essence hole of 1.2. Neither her Essence loss total nor her Essence rating change. In fact, when removing the implant(s) she does nothing but jot down "generic" Essence hole of 1.2 next to her Essence total. [This is more or less the same whether you use the Augmentation version or the single Essence hole approach, differing only on where you place your Essence hole]. So far so good. Next, Sue decides to implant a 1.6 piece of new bioware. She has the nuyen to pay for it so its just a matter of getting upgraded. She gets the implants installed and then recalculates the (dynamic) bioware and cyberware (sub)totals. [Again the same in both rules]. She adds up the new bioware essence loss (sub)total and gets 4.0. Then she adds up her updated cyber essence loss total and gets 2 (3.2-1.2). This is where the two rules differ. Again the same calculations are required in both rules but Augmentation factors in the Essence holes at this point.] This is where people had problems or thought it got unnecessarily complicated. She then moves on to calculate her new total Essence loss and gets 5.0 [(bioware) 4.0 + (cyberware) 1(2/2)]. At this point she subtracts 1.2 (for the "generic" Essence hole/credit) from that 5.0 to gets 3.8 (note this total is no longer directly derived from the subtotals which several people found counter intuitive). She must then compare 3.8 to her prior Essence loss of 4.4 (or if she hadn't kept track of that she would subtract 3.8 from 6 to compare Essence ratings 1.6 before vs. 2.2 newly calculated). Since 3.8 is lower than her previous total, her total Essence loss remains at 4.4 (and her Essence rating at 1.6). However, she must now subtract the difference between between 4.4 and 3.8 to give her updated Essence hole of 0.6. This is calculated differently under Augmentation since the Essence holes factor into the bioware and cyberware (sub)total calculation when adding the implantation costs and the Essence total is the final figure you deduct from your Essence. As I said, SR4 is designed to be easily customizable. If you prefer Frank's single Essence hole system please feel free to use it. |
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Jul 29 2007, 02:54 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984 |
Sorry, not seeing the issue here. If she had not removed the stuff and had 2.4 Bio and 2.0 cyber (and thus 3.2 Essence used) And then added 0.5 cyber She would have ended up with 3.7 essence used because the numbers would have changed. Either I am missing something from the original rules or the moving and readding the ware changes nothing at all from not removing anything and just adding new stuff. |
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Jul 29 2007, 02:56 PM
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#45
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You've made it far more complicated than it needs to be. All you have to do is add up all your cyberware implants and all your bioware implants, split the lowest value in half, add them together, and subtract from your base Essence score (6 in most cases). If the number is lower than your current Essence score, it just became your new Essence score. If it's higher, tada, you have an Essence hole.
Want to see if you can get another implant? Repeat the process and add the implants value to either the cyberware or bioware total as normal. Split the lowest of the two in half. Add together. Subtract total from 6. Still alive (Essence 0.01 or higher)? Then yep, you can get that implant. No additional bookkeeping over what you already take care of. No need to even call it an Essence hole. |
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Jul 29 2007, 02:57 PM
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#46
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Why? With the BBB, you needed three numbers: Essence, Cyberware, Bioware. With Augmention, you need five: Essence, Cyberware, Bioware, Cyber-Hole, Bio-Hole Now comes the fun part: If Cyberware > Bioware ever goes to Cyberware < Bioware or vice versa - you have to start over from 6 (minus other losses) again - both in Augmention and the BBB. |
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Jul 29 2007, 02:59 PM
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#47
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
The point is, she added a 0.50 implant and only lost 0.30 Essence from it (when it should have cost either 0.25 if cyberware were the lower total or 0.50 if it were the higher total; the latter being the case in this example). The middle step (removing all the ware) was just an attempt to make the point more clear, which it failed to do. |
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Jul 29 2007, 03:05 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984 |
No, that isn't the case.
Because that is not how the maths works. It is not due to holes at all, it is due to the dynamic bio/cyber relationship that SR4 introduced in the core. The reason why it is 0.3E difference to the final total is because when the cyber goes up to 2.5, the bio drops down to 1.2. So in effect you are add 0.1 to the higher number and 0.2 to the lower number. While yes, it may seem intuitive that you would be losing either 0.25E or 0.5E, that is not how the maths works around that swing point, this is not new, this is why it is most efficient to have those bio and cyber values close together. This quirk isn't new and I'm not quite sure why it is suddenly a problem now, the only real problem the seperate numbers causes in my book is that it can inhibit a move from cyber to bio or vice versa. Personally I feel that either system works, provided state in a single essence hole scenario that the hole is the difference between your new essence total due to stuff, and your essence loss (To prevent my mysterious suddenly I lose essence for removing stuff problem) While I was initially surprised at the 2 hole method, it does make sense to me and I'm still failing to see this new loophole it causes. Is it just that has revealed to some people this older aspect of cyber and bio? |
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Jul 29 2007, 03:16 PM
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#49
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
If it helps, and judging by peoples' reactions it might, I will be pushing to include the generic Essence hole rule as a Tweaking the Rules option in errata - it should have been included but we ran out of space there.
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Jul 29 2007, 03:20 PM
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#50
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
People are concerned more by the excessive and completely unnecessary bookkeeping than the loophole that exists.
No clue where you're coming up with the "add 0.1 to the higher and 0.2 to the lower" bit or how it relates to a 0.50 implant, but it would only make sense if the only thing that altered was cyberware being the dominant value and bioware the lesser. Not having them shift and having a 0.50 implant slipped in for only 0.30 Essence simply because it shifted those values. The main problem, again, is the very nature of the flip-flopping shifts. I still don't understand why it was changed so that cyberware or bioware had less impact on a person's Essence based solely upon which was more prevalent in the system, or why adding a tiny bit more of one would auto-magically cause that fact to swing the other way. Cyberware should have just stayed at the listed values, they should have cut all bioware values in half, and called it a day. Since, you know, organic > inorganic as far as magic is concerned (and that being the single largest reason Essence plays a role in a character's life). But... that's a whole different discussion. Summary: Aspected Essence holes are unnecessary, overburdening, require excessive bookkeeping, and in no way prevent any problems from occuring over the KISS method. |
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