Firearms Options

[l33tpenguin]

The easiest way to model accuracy at range would simply be to double the uncompensated recoil mod at medium range and triple it at long range.

Which is reasonably accurate. firing a fully automatic weapon at range results in the first round being dead on target while everything after that is spray and pray. You don't hit a target at 500 yards by going full auto. You hit him with single shots and very short, controlled bursts.

[Kingmaker]

I was thinking of halving recoil at short, normal at medium, and double at long.

[Critias]

That sounds better to me, Kingmaker. I'd rather see something to lower recoil at close ranges (to help offset the recoil issues the game has) than just something to make recoil nastier at long ranges.

Maybe instead of halving or doubling it, just a +1 virtual recoil comp at short, 0 (normal recoil comp) for medium, and -1 to recoil comp for long?

[kzt]

That doesn't allow non-godlike characters to hit with long bursts at close range, which they should be able to do. It took me about a magazine to figure out how to shoot an SMG reasonable effectively on full auto at a target 20-30 feet away.

[Critias]

I just dislike halving because then you've got to figure out/remember/balance for whether or not you cut it in half before other applicable recoil modifiers or afterwards, round up or down, yadda yadda. +1, 0, -1 is pretty simple.

And I thought our "recoil modifications for range" was mostly an attempt to toss in one line of house rule to specifically fix the "for range" part of the issue, not us trying to hammer out an overall fix to the strange recoil problem.

[Kingmaker]

Make it a bigger modifier, like maybe +4, 0, -4. Or whatever works.

[psychophipps]

As a person who shoots fairly regularly, not some crazy shoot-bot like Leatham or Jarrett of course, I feel that the current rules seem to reflect reality effectively enough for the purposes of gaming. Not the biggest fan of the mods for burstfire but what can you do?
One mod that we've been using to great effect is the removal of dice modifiers and instead just using threshold increases instead. Let's face it, taking 1-2 dice from 15 isn't that big a deal, but making them roll 3 successes before they start to count really makes thing s a lot more, err...dicey.

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

[Shrike30]

The way that CP2020 used to handle full autofire was, IIRC, you got -1 penalty for every 10 rounds fired (you could REALLY unload in CP2020). Unless, of course, you were firing at close range... in which case you got +1 for every 10 rounds fired.

You could always say halve the penalties at close range, or something along those lines. I have a houserule that recoil doesn't apply at all if you're at point blank... this one came into existence after one of my players jammed his TMP through an open car window into the chest of the driver and cut loose on automatic. "Don't bother with the penalty, just go for it."

A fistfight is not point blank... there's a little room for error there. Jammed so close that the thing can't possibly walk off target, because friction with the target is keeping it in place? That's another story.

[TheOneRonin]

[Critias]

I often describe myself as firing two or three times the number of shots that my actual declared actions tell me I've fired -- particularly with handguns in semi-auto -- just because I think that not every character ever should be dropping everyone with clean single shots to the head, or double taps to the center of mass.

[TheOneRonin]

[TheOneRonin]

With the way I treat thresholds, a badguy who is 7 meters away and standing behind a waist-high wall has a threshold of 3. If you have a dicepool of less than 9, just hitting him becomes less than guaranteed. And if you throw in any other modifiers for visibility and movement, the shot becomes even more difficult.

It keeps the lead flying and forces the players to have to choose their shots carefully.

[DTFarstar]

The only problem I have with modification of the firearms rules such as TheOneRonin described is that it just makes mages better. The harder you make it to hit with firearms, the better spells like Stunbolt and Manabolt and such become.


Chris

[kzt]

[Critias]

[l33tpenguin]

[Critias]

Yup. It's something I've wanted to house rule for a long time.

According to SR, the box of 250 .22 rounds I picked up for plinking ($10 from Wal Mart), and the Winchester White-Box 100 9mm rounds I got (up to $15 at Wal-Mart) should've run me about the price of a nice new rifle.

[Narmio]

Presumably the ammo prices are what they are so that they have any impact at all on characters' budgets. If you were to reduce ammo prices by a factor of ten across the board, or whatever seems fair, then there would be no real point to tracking how much ammo characters own, only how much they had on their person. Additionally, what small deterrent price is to the exotic ammos like SnS, Ex-ex and APDS would be gone completely.

I guess in the game of balance vs realism, this one has just never bothered me.

[Fix-it]

I would put forth the idea that the extra cost for ammo is the cost associated with it falling off the back of a truck, having most tracking marks removed, then sold on the black market.

[Critias]

That's supposed to be covered by street index, though. Prices listed for products in SR sourcebooks are supposed to be the going, legal, rate that is then modified by availability, street index, Fixers/other middle-men, yadda yadda.

[hyzmarca]

Ammo in SR4 is highly abstracted. The 10 for 20 :nuyen: price for regular ammo is the same across all calibers. .50 BMG ammo costs the same as .22, so it evens out in the end.

[Critias]

Well, no. It only evens out in the end if you planned on buying a bunch of .50 BMG to bring the real-world average price in line. If all someone does is eat up machine pistol or SMG or hold out ammo, they get boned by each pull of the trigger costing them twenty or fifty times what it should. Even assault rifle ammo (the largest rounds your average gunbunny is likely to go through very quickly) costs about four times what it should.

[Marwynn]

It's a corporate hell-world, someone has to make a killing on killing. After all, you can only sell so many guns.

It is pricey and it makes you somewhat grateful when Mr. Johnson picks up the munitions tab on the boxes of APDS and Ex-Ex you wanted.

[l33tpenguin]

95% of the ammunition spent in SR would (more than likely) be 5.56, 7.62, 9mm, 40 and 45 cal. With a mix of 308, 357 and others thrown in for good measure, but the former as they are your typical assault rifle and SMG calibers. A lot of 50 cal BMG would be expended as well, but its typically only a vehicle mounted caliber, in which case you'll go through a lot very quickly... otherwise its limited to high powered sniper rifles.

Wait, so, anyway. As for not having to keep track of ammunition, seriously, ammunition should be the LEAST of your worries. You have to worry that Mr. J didn't set you up. That your Fixer isn't trying to double cross you. That the Mega Corp you just did whatever to doesn't find out that it was you that did it. That the mega corp that your J works for doesn't intend on you taking the fall. That your fence is legit and isn't going to rip you off.

Anyway, among the host of things you should worry about, ammunition shouldn't be one.

[kzt]

Until you are loading your last mag. . .