 Firearms |
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 Aug 1 2007, 06:26 AM
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#76
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234  |
Try http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUbkrwQI6TY&NR=1 They show the target pretty clearly at the end. The main problem with videos that show more interesting stuff by people who look more competent shooting is that you can't really see effects on the target. This one, for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYylSbmIP3I You will notice that the guns shooting are pretty stable, even when the people are moving and shooting. But you can't really see the hits on the targets. |
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Aug 1 2007, 07:21 AM
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#77
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
*goooooonnnnggg* I have been enlightened. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoner_63 That's the weapon I was talking about earlier, by the way. |
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Aug 1 2007, 02:07 PM
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#78
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
I'll agree that yes, in most of the videos you cannot see the effect on the target. However, none of the videos I posted look like what SR rules would describe as a -9 penalty for full autofire. You do realize that a shooter with 5 AGI and a 5 skill would have a single die to roll in those cases in the videos. Bullshit. The thing people with no experience can't seem to get their head around is that real auto-fire is about rhythm. When hold down that trigger, it doesn't take a decently trained shooter long to adjust to the steady rhythm of the weapon's cycle. From that point, most autofire is fairly controllable. At close range, you will be putting lots of holes in your target. Yes, some of the rounds will miss, but plenty will hit. At longer range, you will put far fewer holes in your target, but realistically you will have a greater chance to hit with at least one round. 4th ed rules take a step in the right direction with the Wide/Narrow burst concept, but they still rule recoil as pretty unmanageable without considerable equipment additions/modifications. That is just plain wrong. |
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Aug 1 2007, 02:48 PM
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#79
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
There are a couple of videos that I looked at while finding those two that looked like someone getting handed an MP5 for the first time and firing it with reasonable accuracy on full auto. There was coaching and such involved, but nothing that looked like the SR4 narrative of bullets flying everywhere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFi7ge31L_o http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HNRCMMs7j0 My one experience of firing an MP5 was similar. It's quite controllable, I dumped most of one magazine in a 10 inch circle at 20-30 feet. My friend next to me with the AK-47 had more difficulty, but it wasn't "bullets flying everywhere" either. Which is a long way of saying I agree. |
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Aug 1 2007, 03:19 PM
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#80
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Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 30-May 06 From: Near Seattle (Eastsider) Member No.: 8,622 |
From what I can tell, range has largely been left out of this discussion. It hasn't been uncommon that we've had to engage a second group of hostiles (typically including a mage - why they don't want to be closer to us I don't know) at more than 50m, sometimes over 100m. I don't have my book with me, so I don't know where the slivergun or the Fubuki top out, but I know my Predator hasn't had the range to take on some subset of our opposition in more than one firefight. Fortunately we usually post a guy in the Shadowrun moral equivalent of a ghillie suit with Remington 700 in .308. :D
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Aug 1 2007, 03:31 PM
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#81
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
That's an excellent example of how the game supports choice. However, in most of the games I run and have played in, it's rare for someone over 50m away from you to have line of sight (dense urban environment after all). Same thing goes for the Sniper support guy. The best I've seen is a sniper positioned on top of a crane with LOS to the docks down below. But in a conventional SR mission...especially one that takes place mostly indoors, it's highly unlikely that you will be able to see anything that is 50m away or further, much less engage. |
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Aug 1 2007, 04:00 PM
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#82
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
My group has been toying with the idea of giving characters who choose to make nothing but Take Aim actions for a full pass recoil compensation equal to half of the appropriate weapon skill in addition to the normal bonus on their next attack that fits the Take Aim requirements. Basically, we agree that automatic weapons should be easier to handle, but only when taking the time to use the appropriate techniques. Otherwise we assume that standard shadowrun shoot outs consist of the pray 'n' spray tomfoolery that directly leads to the ridiculously low hitrate found in RL firefights.
[EDITED] |
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Aug 1 2007, 04:30 PM
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#83
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
I'll agree with this part.
The last time I checked, Wired Reflexes doesn't make it more difficult to control a firearm during autofire operation, at least not according to the BBB. And I think running around and making mad use of one's veteran gymnastics skill to dodge a hail of gunfire would either A.) put you on full defense, precluding being able to shoot at all or B.) penalize your dice pool with movement modifiers, which happens whether you are firing full-auto or single shots. Again, it doesn't specifically influence one's ability to hit with autofire more than it influences anything else.
Just to be clear, this is EXACTLY how anyone with a skill of 3 or higher should be using any type of shoulder fired longarm. Also, in some of those videos the shooters aren't just standing there. They are moving, quite rapidly, through the equivalent of an indoor environment, engaging multiple targets across short intervals. Sounds like SR combat to me.
"A couple of consecutive Aim actions" is going to be 3 full seconds for anyone without Wired Reflexes or something similar. And my guess is the people in these videos are mundanes. And no, in several of the videos, it doesn't look like the people are taking a full 3 seconds to Aim. And even if they are, SR tells us that those Take Aim actions will give the shooter 2 more dice. So that brings their -9 dice recoil penalty down to -7. So you are telling me those shooters look like they are shooting with a -7 to hit. So they all must have at least Agi 4 and Skill 4 to even have a chance to connect with the target. Again, bullshit.
That's a step in the right direction. But it sucks that we have make house rules just for shit like auto fire to make sense. |
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Aug 1 2007, 05:18 PM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
Analysis of AR wounding potential This article is one of several that suggest that, in law enforcement related shootings anyway, that the Shotgun is the number one killer. The link I had to 'The Myth of energy Transfer' is broken, sadly. Here is another one which is a compilation of other links. Wound Ballistics The M855 does indeed fragment under 200m, the closer to the target, the more extreme the fragmentation. However, since this tends to occur within 4-5 inches of penetration and the resultant fragments do not travel more than 3 inches, this fails to meet the 'industry standard' 12-15 inches of penetration for 'terminal ballistics' that is used by, for example, the FBI (in response to the Pittman massacre). Now, to bring this back around to Shadowrun: Shotguns are underpowered? Maybe, but body armor is probably a factor there. Assault Rifles are good penetrators, and handguns are just about as lethal as they need to be. If your players are overly 'gaming' their handgun power, put them on a job that includes open fields, guards with rifles and really make them measure their movement. At 300+ yards they won't even be able to hit, while taking fire themselves. Also: Given the '2 inititative passes' combat lengths being quoted, (which matches my expirences), I wonder if the fault is the system or the GM? Are environmental factors coming into play? Do the enemy take cover, use tactics? A recent firefight that was featured on the news was 45 minutes long, I imagine it would take a long time to play out... Is the problem that players expect to hit with every (almost every?) shot, unrealistic in most combat situations? I suspect it's a combination, naturally. Still, if the bad guys aren't mooks, and play like the Runners do, I think gun battles might be a bit more memorable. Magic used more defensively, for example, bad guys that pop thermal smoke to cover their maneuvers... this bears thinking about (and, hopefully, I'll play it out soon and report back...) |
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Aug 1 2007, 05:46 PM
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#85
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Shotguns are horribly lethal, and isn't fully reflected in the rules. Being hit with 9 .32 cal bullets is just bad for your health. However it gets kind of painful from a rules aspect to reflect the close range lethality without making it a super weapon able to kill everyone within extreme range.
In SR4 terms that would be a long narrow burst from a light pistol. The issue is that each of the pieces of buckshot is stopped separately by body armor, so you should get a big bonus to armor. So If I was going to make changes, I'd probably go from +2 to +4/5 to reflect it in the rules, but with a DV of "light pistol" to determine stun vs physical damage. If you did this you should trim that damage bonus as range increase, but that might end up being too much of a pain. But I'm reasonably happy with the games treatment of slugs. |
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Aug 1 2007, 06:19 PM
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#86
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Target Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 22-July 07 Member No.: 12,338 |
What were the pre-errata modifications for Flechette ammo? My printing includes the +5 AP modifier. It also says that flechette weapons already account for the modifiers, which doesn't jive for the AVS, Remington Roomsweeper, or any other such weapon.
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Aug 1 2007, 06:36 PM
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#87
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
pre-errata was the same except only +2 AP.
they errated the ammo, they didn't seem to ever get around to errating the guns with that ammo pre-factored in however. whether that was an oversight or not is unknown, but i suspect they intended for it to be changed also. |
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Aug 1 2007, 06:51 PM
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#88
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
The most common mistake regarding shotguns in gaming in general (and Shadowrun did it too... at least in earlier edtions) is that they aren't really going to be good for hitting 'lots of people' per shot. I understand the maximum spread of shot is a roughly meter diameter circle... not exactly precision but I wouldn't call it an 'area effect' weapon either. I suppose one oddball method of dealing with it would be to literally treat a sucessful hit as a number of... um... holdout pistol hits? X number of successes adds to the 'mean hits' up to 9 or so maximum, and each range band reduces the mean by 2 (down to zero, which can be 'bought up' with successes. Each 'hit' allows one to either add another 'shot' or is applied to the damage of each 'shot'. Ugh. It just feels too ugly to use, however. |
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Aug 1 2007, 09:01 PM
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#89
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
Actually, if you wanted, you could use the shotgun spread rules as written, but specifically disallow hitting multiple targets. It's not great, because you get penalized on DV and AP, but you still get the penalty to the defender's Reaction roll. That's really the point of firing shot, anyway, right? Making it more likely to hit the target.
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Aug 1 2007, 10:10 PM
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#90
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
@WoundedRonin
Sorry I changed that post so much while you were replying to it. I glitched my edit check and took a ridiculous amount of time paring down my thoughts when I should of just did it right the first time. Anyway, I agree with your points, for the most part, and even the houserule my group is considering is at best an imperfect solution though. It helps make skilled samurai with 6 automatics skill perform long narrow bursts without penalty, but you're right when you say that an average marksmen with only 2 or 3 skill would still be lucky to toss more than a die or two at a full auto test. |
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Aug 2 2007, 01:05 AM
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#91
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Target Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 30-May 07 Member No.: 11,791 |
Red dots and holographic sights are used on competition race guns (IPSC, etc). They typically use pictanty rails. Actual scopes are also used on bolt action handguns. I think it is a rather stupid thing to have on a hand gun (kind of top heavy), but apparently some people like them. |
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Aug 2 2007, 01:55 PM
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#92
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
I think this was actually aimed at me, since I'm the one who was actually quoting you. But no worries. ;-)
That's actually not what I meant, or maybe not exactly what I meant. I blame my rush to communicate and failure to proofread. 8-) What I was trying to say is that per canon rules a shooter firing a 10-shot full-auto burst from non-compensated, non-smartlinked automatic would HAVE to have a combined AGI and SKILL pool of at least 8 to be able to roll a single die, and that ONLY works if said character burns two simple actions "Taking Aim". Here is an example for you: Soldier Bob has AGI 3 (Typical) and AUTOMATICS 5 (Expert/SWAT/Special Forces), giving him 8 dice. If he wants to even be able to shoot his AK-97 on full auto, he needs to spend 2 simple actions on the "take aim" action. That will give him 2 more dice to roll. So he now has a dice pool of 10. So when he shoots 10 rounds from his AK, he suffers a -9 penalty due to recoil. Bob only gets to roll a single die in his attack test, and that is ONLY if the target is within 50 meters. Any further out, and his dicepool drops to 0. So to recap, I am stating that the RULES AS WRITTEN state that your Special Forces guy firing a 10-shot burst from an AK only gets to roll a single die to hit, and that is AFTER taking two "take aim" actions. And I call that B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T. Yes, that is the way it is printed in cannon. And yes, it is fucktarded. I apologize if it sounds like I am directing my hostility at you. I am not. This sort of silly rules shit just gets to me. |
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Aug 2 2007, 03:20 PM
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#93
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
And shows not just an issue with recoil and combat rules, but yet another issue with the hard cap on skills/stats, and the way-out-of-wack descriptors for what the various skill levels mean.
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Aug 2 2007, 03:36 PM
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#94
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 111 Joined: 12-July 06 From: Redmond,UCAS Member No.: 8,876 |
Have any versions of Shadowrun ever done a good job of handling autofire?
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Aug 2 2007, 03:37 PM
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#95
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
No. Which is why many of us were hoping SR4 (which was by far the one with, otherwise, the broadest, boldest, changes) would stop the vicious cycle.
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Aug 2 2007, 03:49 PM
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#96
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Yeah, to effectively use full auto weapons at all you're pretty much forced to get a gyromount or otherwise create the sort of combat monster that a lot of people frown upon for being one dimensional.
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Aug 2 2007, 04:20 PM
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#97
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
or just use the recoil comp devices that are provided. a shock pad with a gas vent III gives you 4 points of recoil comp... which is enough to fire 3 short bursts and take only a -1 penalty on the second burst. that's not all that bad. |
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Aug 2 2007, 04:26 PM
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#98
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Well, I meant the full auto mode. My bad.
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Aug 2 2007, 05:02 PM
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#99
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
true... unless of course you just bust out some suppressive fire. |
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Aug 2 2007, 05:31 PM
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#100
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Which, instead, entails flinging most of the ranged combat rules of the game right out the window (including any sort of requirement to even have the right skill, all the recoil stuff we've mentioned, smartlinks doing any good, not being able to see your target in the first place, how dodging works, you name it).
If that's not it's own can of worms, I don't know what is. |
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