[X] My Assistant

[Apathy]

How large are the CAS/UCAS/NAN/Atzlan armies in 2070, and how are they armed/equiped/enhanced? Do you picture them as a relatively small, elite force, or are they huge hordes of mostly expendable nobodies?

My take is that they would have large numbers of expendable cannon fodder in the infantry. They would have very little in the way of personal enhancements, but would be very well equiped. (Why spend money implanting a smartlink in PVT Snuffy when it's cheaper to give him smart goggles, and when you can get the goggles back at the end of his service agreement? And if they're going back into the civilian sector, how deadly do you want them to be?)

Cyberware could then be offered to more senior soldiers as re-enlistment encentives. (Re-up for 5 years and we'll throw in your choice of Wired Reflexes or Bone Lacing!)

What do you think the equipment list would look like for a light infantry squad?

[Synner667]

They actually use almost the opposite logic in Cyberpunk 2020..
..It's better to armour and upgrade a soldier, so you don't waste the training and skills.

Otherwise, you might as well grab some junkies, put them in a uniform, give them a gun and point them at the target !!


I like the enlist for 'x' years and get some goodies idea.


With the biodrone's from Augmentation, maybe you'd just have flesh puppets as shock troops to soak up the bullets and 'proper' troops to clean up ??


Just my thruppence..

[odinson]

I'd wager that there wouldn't be much in the way of infantry in 2070. Most of the battles would be fought with drones and long range weapons. I'd wager that germ warfare and biological weapons and the lack of control on them would make sending a swarm of soldiers at a target a bad idea. I'd guess that unless the army is heavy into magic that all the soldiers would be very heavily cybered. A army that is big into magic would have lots of summoners to bring in spirits that would act like drones and high level initiates that relied on ritual sorcery to nuke targets rather than be up close to cast spells.

[Jaid]

regular drones are 10 times cheaper than biodrones and imo more effective. i wouldn't expect to see biodrones in military use as grunts anytime soon.

[jmecha]

As far as training goes....that's what Infantry soilders do every week while not deployed. Soilders make X amount of money a month, depending on rank and time in service no matter if you have them sitting on thier ass or training, and in my experince the Army tends to do it's best to get it's money's worth out of it's troops by repeated drilling day in and day out while in between deployments.

So the idea of cybering up soilders to avoid the cost of training seems silly to me because then the goverment would be dropping cash on all this cyber in addition to dropping cash on paying thier troops. To me I would think they spend as much time as they can training troops while not actively using them on deployments and that they only equip soilders with cyber and gear that they can recycle through the ranks whenever a soilders decided to get out of the service or a soilder transfers units, or even dies.

Military units are not all funded equally and the ones that do have the cash to buy the cool kid toys make sure thoose toys stay within that unit. So when Pvt Joe Snuffy gets transffered from one military base to another he has to give up all of his equipment, pack all his personal belongings in his travel bags, and then get reassigned new gear by what ever unit he got transfered to.

As far as actual cyberware goes I would wager that regardless of the tech available militaries will still be ran by red tape and that even reenlistment cyber ware recievers will be added to a long back list of people waiting for thier cyberware.

hell I was in the service not to long ago and the waiting list for corrective laser eye surgery was about 5 years long......so I would wager that in 2070 the waiting list for free bone lacing and wired reflexes would be just as long for thoose that want it.

The other thing I learned while in the service though is that despite all the red tape, there is a wavier for every thing, so if the soilder in question has the right people signing off on the right paper work waiting lists can get side stepped and what not.

[Kingmaker]

The quality of equipment and training of infantry would depended on the country, both how wealthy, and social values, like it is now. For example, Aztlan might have hordes of cannon fodder and a few elite troops, while the UCAS might have fewer but better trained regulars.
I'd expect a regular, reasonably well trained infantryman to be equipped with a smartlink, radio, assault rifle, body armor, and a few grenades. The trade of a longer stint in the military in exchange for cyber is also a good idea.

As for infantry becoming outdated, infantry never become outdated. Doubtless, Shadowrun infantry would be quite different from what we think of, but they'd still be there. Infantry are critical for urban warfare, which would probably be the dominant form of warfare in 2070.

edit: I agree with above post about the waiting list though.

[TheOneRonin]

For the CAS/UCAS, I see fewer and slightly better trained/better paid Infantry. Today, an American Solder in a combat MOS and 6 years in can triple his salary by going to work for Blackwater or another security contractor. The Army/Marines spend a bucket load of money training soldiers. They are quickly learning that it's a bad idea to have all of that initial investment last barely more than half a decade. Thus, I see enlistment contract terms getting longer (prob closer to 10 years), the pay being better, the benefits being even better than they are now, and the over-all numbers of combat arms soldiers decreasing.

Regular light infantry will be almost completely replaced with Mechanized units. You'll see Armor, Drone, Artillery, and Air support all the way down at the Company level. Your regular light-infantry roles will be taken over by "Ranger-esque" forces. Individual soldiers will be relatively well equipped and well trained...probably a spot better than they are today. The UCAS/CAS military won't be planning on fighting an extended war in eastern europe or conducting occupation operations in a middle eastern country, so the need for massive divisions of infantry and armor is no longer there. Border defense and small operations in allied countries will be the name of the game.

Oh, and I don't think you'd see implanted cyberware/bioware anywhere outside of the Special Forces community.

[Kyoto Kid]

...in past editions I had Smartlinks and Datajacks being pretty much the only 'ware a "regular" soldier would ever get (maybe a chipjack). Specialised commandos may have a bit more such as sensory mods or maybe even Boosted Reflexes. The one piece of 'ware that would be a little more common is the VCR (Drone Riggers and pilots).

Bioware, because of the invasiveness and high cost, would be pretty much out of the question with maybe the exception of certain special covert ops agents.

In 2070 though a lot of the headware can now be done though external means such as visors, contacts, & earbuds. Helmets could include a Trode mesh in the lining which would to link a wireless command matrix for display of tactical data on the helmet's visor.

[Spike]

Kingmaker touches upon a great truth of the military: the infantry never get replaced. Cavalry was supposed to eliminate the Infantry, then the advent of cars and tanks, then air power...

Drones and magic and cyber-elites... they all have their place, but Pvt Snuffy with his rifle will still eat dirt.

As for what he looks like: That's a more complex problem, as has been touched on.

Extrapolating from the equipment lists in the book, Pvt Snuffy wears an Armored Uniform (an Armor Jacket, essentially) and a helmet. He carries an Assault Rifle (probably the M16 knock off or the AK knock off, militaries are very traditional that way) one guy in the squad carries the grenade launcher, one guy carries a LMG. (Nato Doctrine, assumed). Their platoon will possibly include an attached mortar or rocket launcher team, a HMG team (possibly at the FOB), and/or sniper or mage support teams.

I suspect, barring instituitionalized racism, that Orks will be very common in the ranks, particularly in infantry units.

Cyber is likely to be a reinlistment option, so your squad leaders and platoon sergeants are the ones likely to be enhanced. Pvt Snuffy on the other hand will use bulky, but durable external hardware.

The real question is Commlinks and PANs. I suspect the army in question will issue to all 'basic trainees' at this point their own 'MILSPEC' PAN, which would be the only one they could carrier 'in the field' normally. It would have a durable shock proof casing, a hard coded on/off switch (in case their encryption is broken)
and a unique 'propietary interface' for crypto. The Squad Leader's Commlink would have admin access to his team's PANs, and a preprogrammed line to his platoon sergeant. Wired to the PAN would be an A/V suite, laser rangefinding and GPS (for calling supporting fire), and basic medical sensors. The Squadleader could do a quick look for a by-individual ammo count so he could cross level the squad, his boss would be able to look at the squad as a whole. Presumably the entire thing would get routed up to the Tactical Operations Center, where the unit (and any enemy they encouter) are automatically posted to the tactical overlay.


A good deal of training, particularly in the wireless age, is going to be 'blackout conditions' training, training without access to the PAN in a field environment. We take it for granted now, but given the amount of immersion into the wireless world, it would be doubly important to ensure the troops are comfortable working outside of that. The least reliable thing on the battlefield is comms.


EDIT::: damn, completely missed the points I was going to make on organic units and transportataion/armor... oh well.

[FrankTrollman]

Simple sets of Wires seem like a very affordable way to increase the firepower of a unit. Wired Reflexes 1 costs 11 thousand - less than it takes to keep someone going at low lifestyle for a year. So I really don't see people getting into and out of the army without at least Wired Reflexes 1. Sleep Regulators at 10 thousand also seem like a no-brainer force multiplier.

Most military machines would probably have a non-standard data jack port as an extra form of security. So pretty much every single grunt is going to have datajacks that conform to the military standard.

So yeah... simple cybernetics seems like a cheap and awesome way to improve the effectiveness of your basic infantryman. I can't imagine a modern government deciding to not go that route.

-Frank

[Lindt]

I think the better question is economics. If you use 10 guys to do the job that one could, you still have to FEED those 10. Means 20 more behind the lines. Who you also have to feed.
But I suppose it depends a lot on the overall strategy. One might have a single division of well equipped troops so you could expect them to have invested 20k in mods for each person. Another might have 3 or more full armys. Id expect that to be more of the smartlink and rifle and away you go. Gotta think how much less ammo someone with a smartlink would expend during training to archive the same marksmanship someone with out it would.

[Ed_209a]

I think most of the gear of the 2070 infantryman with be recognizable to the 2007 grunt, just like the gear of a 1940 infantryman would be.

A big difference would be the electronics. Network-centric warfare and information warfare will be mature in 2070.

I think the biggest difference will be drones. Lots of drones. 10k nuyen will get you a very nice infantry-scale combat drone. That same amount will feed and train a man for a month or two, depending on training.

Yes, there will always be meat in the loop, not even counting for mages, but I wouldn't be surprised to see human fireteam leaders leading a few drones instead of a few men.

A lot of infantry work involves stuff like "hike that way, and tell me if you see anyone", or "don't let the enemy through this checkpoint", or "take that checkpoint away from the enemy". Supervised drones can do all that.

Oh, and the first time a drone takes a hit instead of a person, it just paid for several more of itself, because you don't have to heal it, or pay a widow.

[Spike]

[kigmatzomat]

SR4-era rank and file out of boot camp are probably light on cyber. Most of the needs of cyber in the grunts (the current future trooper concept) can be achieved with wearable tech. Milspec goggles, earbuds, throat mike, helmet-mounted trodes and a hardened comm provides a lot of advantage for the troops. Vision boosters, smart link, hearing protection & boosting, GPS/nav, communication, etc all without a single knife cut.

Career military types probably have implants appropriate for their MOS. I'd expect sensory gear would be the most common, followed by endurance-ware (digestive expansion, sleep regulators, etc) and finally combat boosters. Depending on the sociopolitical environment, infantry troops may be in combat 80% of the time or only 10%. The greater the combat time, the more combat boosters.

[Shrike30]

The Lone Star SWAT suite from Augmentation includes flare comp, thermo, smartlink, plastic lacing, and wired I, and runs less than 20k (less than 35k for Alpha). I might have included low-light and dampening, myself, but that's not a bad kit to start out with.

"Similar cyberwear packages have been developed for members of other law enforcement corporations or military units (such as ... the UCAS army, ...)."

[Kingmaker]

Yes, but Lone Star SWAT are effectively the police equivalent of SpecOps. So it would make sense for the UCAS Navy SEALs to have a similar rig, but not for the UCAS 3rd Infantry Division.

[Shrike30]

Training and equipping a basic line soldier today has costs in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Most of that is training.

If your idea of putting a grunt on the ground is a conscript with a rifle and a flak jacket, that's one thing. If you want your soldiers to be competent with using your technical equipment (commlinks, radios, target designators), able to maintain their own weapons to a limited extent, able to handle weapons like grenade and rocket launchers, able to understand things like signals discipline and signature control, capable of surviving exposure to NBC weapons, and a bunch of those other things that go into making a modern soldier, your costs just to get them through basic training and their MOS is pretty significant.

At the same time, the kit that was outlined above provides a significant increase in the combat effectiveness of the individual infantryman, making him tougher (lacing), more dangerous in close quarters (lacing, wired), and more effective in a firefight (smartlink, flare comp, wired) even at night or indoors (thermo). The eye mods and bone lacing are minimally invasive, as they're almost certainly done with nanosurgery. The wired reflexes are noticeably more invasive, but the fact that they essentially double the firepower of an individual infantryman (twice as many passes) would make them worth it. Sure, it's cheaper to pass out combat drugs... but a unit full of depressed addicts is expensive in the long run.

Would this kit be standard for, say, a drone operator, a radio technician, or a cook? Probably not. Any combat MOS, however, would likely be given it. In exchange, I can certainly see the initial contract length being longer than a couple of years.

[Wakshaani]

Depends, hugely, on the country.

The UCAS, for example, has a fairly small "Border patrol" of bulky body infantry and armor, mostly along the Sioux border but a few along the CAS as well. They rely more on small squads of elite troopers (Rangers, Seals, etc) that go in, do a job, then get out. Very strike-pointed.

Aztlan, meanwhile, has a HUGE conventional force, tied up along four borders, stretched thin and of average (At best) quality. They lack any real special forces, instead contracting that out to Aztechnology which has little conventional but gobs of SpecOps.

The CAS, meanwhile, has the largest conventional army in North America (Possibly in the world!) and has high-end training as well, but skimps a bit on technology. The CAS special forces are similar, guys with little gear but amazing skill.

Magic has been integrated into all militaries, but how *well* is a whole other story.

As for cyberware, never on the grunts ... that's what combat drugs are for. Why drop 11K per soldier for Wires when you can give very soldier five hundred bucks in Combat Drugs and expect to get almost all of that back? Everyone keeps two, maybe three hits of Jazz on their vest, never using it in 99.99% of what a soldier's life entails, but, if a firefight breaks out, they're ready to go. If they decide to blow off the service? Well, you can just hand those inhalers back in and pass 'em to the next body that signs up.

Gear can also vary widely, from the African "Villager with an AK-97 and a spare clip" to a CAS soldier in Medium Armor with Ares Assault Rifle, full sensor suite and commlink helmet HUD.

The *average* would probably be:

Armored Vest
Armored Helmet with lowlight, thermo, flare comp, and smartlink.
Ares Alpha/AK-97 (Either with two spare clips) extra ammo for long patrols
Survival Knife
Three Inhalers with combat drug (Usually Jazz)
Trauma Patch
Medi-Kit (1)
Survival Kit

Plus general gear (Entrenching tool, bedroll, canteen, MRE, etc)

[noonesshowmonkey]

Logistical concerns are probably first and foremost, as several users have noted. Augmentation makes mention of a SWAT kit and someone commented that this kit would likely find its way into Spec Ops units. This is true and may even extend into "Elite" units such as the Rangers or several Marine units. The idea that your average line infantryman has those upgrades is, however, rather strange.

The average line infantryman needs to be able to be pushed through training in ~12 to 20 weeks in an affordable fashion. If several weeks, and several thousand nuyen, are tacked onto that cycle, the military is unable to refresh its ranks. Further, 30,000 nuyen invested into a soldier as "standard" equipment that may or may not stick around is a bit absurd. More likely, they would have enhancives found in equipment. Consider the Land Warrior program extended into the 2070s.

A standard infantryman would have a plethora of equipment that we be gotten and returned to a quartermaster as per mission and deployment needs. These would include helmet mods (goggles), weapon mods (smartlink attatchments, surpressors etc), armor mods (heavier armor or interwoven electronics gear) and finally mission specific gear such as advanced electronics. Because all of this gear is mobile and can be moved from soldier to soldier, the investment does not leave with the discharged soldier.

The comment made about cyber being a reinlistment bonus was a very precient one. Squad leaders and sergeants would very likely be sporting cyber, either from issue or wound recovery. Only in a SpecOps unit (which requires a term be served and a re-enlistment to enter the unit) would have mainline, rank and file cyber.

Heavy weapons would probably function in a different fashion, however. Drones would be controlled by a Weapons Platoon or Company and loaned out to units as needed. A VCR enabled rigger would deploy HMGs, mortars, direct fire heavy weapons and other heavy pieces of equipment. This allows the rapid deployment of heavy assets in a safe fashion. A MG draws an incredible amount of fire and an armored drone has a much higher survivability and reliability than a crew of meat bodies that can be ripped up by bullets and shrapnel and will most likely be crapping themselves. Man-operated and crew-serviced weapons would still be in use, but heavily supplemented by combat drones.

These Drone Riggers, attatched at the squad or platoon level, would probably become so inextricable from the unit organization that they would simple by assimilated. It stands to reason that at the Platoon or Company level, at the very least, there would be a Drone Rigger that would operate scout, weapon and communications drones. Scout drones let you see whats around that corner without exposing men to fire. Weapon drones carry heavy equipment into dangerous areas and operate said equipment without fail once there. Communications drones provide movable and semi-secure networking for your unit to other units back to command. Probably the most important part of the future Drone setup. Never lose radio contact again. More over, never use radios again...

All infantrymen would, however, be issued and be responsible for a commlink. Probably something with a massive firewall and a hardware level Encrypt. These commlinks would expidite communications from the fireteam to battalion level, allow for tactical overlays to be displayed on goggle mods, enhanced coordination and precise gathering of real time intelligence. With a tiered network structure, a Forward Observer or other qualified user could be the only man authorized to call in an artillery or air strike. Imagine the possibilities.

Probably attatched at the company level would be a specialist unit of EW troops. These men would deploy forward with infantry units to maintain their network security and if possible destroy the networks of the enemy. Another user very astutely noted that a great deal of the training time would be spent in "Dead Zone" mode, training for fighting with a crashed or compromised network. This is dead on.

Combat enhancive drugs is a tricky question. Military grade drugs would not be out of the question. Being military grade, these would likely cut out the majority of the immediate side effects. It is unlikely that these would be deployed widely due to percentile issues such as weak systems, allergies etc.

This is a very broad topic... And I am some what of a military nut with a love for military history so this has gotten my thinker a' crankin'.

- der menkey

"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemmingway

[Spike]

Shrike:
Bone lacing doesn't make the soldier bulletproof, meaningfully. Dangerous in close quarters is a step in wrong direction.

As for wired reflexes 'doubling' the firepower of a squad, not really. Infantrymen do not, generally, live the life of an action hero. A comparatively tiny portion of their careers is actually going to be spent shooting, and jacking their reflexes for that tiny tiny portion is not, in the beaurocratic scheme of things, a cost effective measure.

Further, I suspect that the cost involved with 'equipping a soldier' quoted earlier is HUGELY inflated.

Consider: A platoon of 60 basic trainees has three Drill Sergeants, who's total pay for the two to three month (say three, since we are talking infantry) is going to be a whopping 20k ( rough estimate), the barracks and training facilities they use may cost a few million dollars to put together, but will last 30-50 years, with hundreds of thousands of trainee's passing by. The actual cost of a soldier's uniforms and equipment is less than 2k for the stuff they take with them, and the rifle they train with? 800 bucks, and that has to last for 10-20 thousand rounds, so it will probably pass through 30 trainee's hands during its lifecycle. As for that equipment that was the 'big ticket': At the end of his tour the troop will have to give 75% or more of it back in, so most of that has changed hands several times too by the time he gets it.


Its the same principle that was at work in WWII for tank battles. It took three american tanks to kill one german tank, but we could feild them in 5 to 1 odds and STILL save money.

Satan's Own Beancounters, I'm tellin' ya!

[Blink]

I would expect a small army designed to deal with low intensity threats on a moments notice in the northern hemisphere. Relatively small by modern standards, but highly mobile, highly trained, and well equiped. The army would be sort of like what the marines are like today (semi-elite). Within that army they would have special forces units, and only officers of those units would be allowed to use special weapons, cyberware and bioware. They would have combat-trained mages and hackers as part of these groups also. If the army ever encountered shadowrunners, it would be like a sledgehammer hitting them.

[kzt]

[G.NOME]

@monkey: Very astute post, there's only one thing I disagree with. I really can't see the drone rigger deployed along with the company's manuever elements. I could much easier see drone/EW/Magic all attached to the company HQ (provided that they have any magic, that is).

[PlatonicPimp]

One thing I've learned in the last few months is that when the issued equipment isn't up to the task, sometimes you are allowed to use civilian "equivalent" gear. In other words, with your superior's permission, you can buy your own, better gear. In some cases this is encouraged.

Fast forward, and I think that while the typical grunt wouldn't be issued cyberware, he would be allowed to purchase it from private funds, maybe getting access to stuff he couldn't as a civilian.

Another thing, many countries may enlist all metatypes, but put them in hoogenous units. Hell, they could probably make decent arguments for it. "Orcs are better suited for front-line combat duty, and trolls make better mobile heavy weapon platforms. I mean operators. Why slow those units down by including dwarves, sho are too slow to keep up and make better technicians anyway?" Humans, of course, get the preferred treatment, unless this is the Tir, in which case it's elves. Does the military have a lot of humanis members in the high ranks? you betcha.

[Zak]

You should account for hardware being bought on personal basis, maybe with discount or loans given for getting an implant. And ware as a status symbol might play a role within that framework aswell. Damn, just look how much some people spend on cars and stuff... Sergeant Miller over there with that brand new cybereyes sure looks cool now.