[X] My Assistant

[Gelare]

Hey there Dumpshock, nice to meet you all. I found out about Shadowrun when I read through the entirety of the 4th edition rulebook in between games of Magic at my local gaming store, and it seemed really cool. By now I've run a couple games of Shadowrun (and big thanks here to Aaron Pavao on these forums, we ran his Ping Time and Born to Die adventures, pavao.org/shadowrun), converting my old D&D group, but I still have a few questions, mostly with things that still make no sense to any of us, and the fact that we all used to play D&D might have something to do with it. But here's a few things I was hoping you all could help me understand:

1. Initiative Passes.
As soon as I read about this, it seemed clearly, blatantly broken all to hell. At first we played that instead of not being able to fire more than X times per action phase, you can't fire more than X times in a whole round of combat (that is, IP 1-4). But I went and reread the rules, and that's not what it says. It does say quite clearly that you can fire your pistol twice per initiative pass. Why would someone with faster reflexes be able to pull a mental (smartlinked) trigger more times in three seconds? Beats me. Here's my favorite part: full auto firing mode basically means you hold down the trigger and go. But if you have faster reflexes, you can hold down the trigger better, or faster, or something! Because you can fire one full auto burst per initiative pass! And as soon as the party mage learns about the improve reflexes spell, he's going to be nuking enemies faster than you can say 10d6 fireball, because having better reflexes lets your mind compute complex arcane formulae, too!

Most characters have one initiative pass. And none of these characters stand even a shadow of a chance against characters with four initiative passes. Could someone please tell me what's going on here?

2. Reality Filter.
It says that matrix nodes have their own filters programmed in, like a medieval setting or a high-techy setting or whatever. It's cool stuff. Now, when you use your reality filter program, if your setting beats their setting, you get a response bonus, and if theirs beats yours, you lose response. But what if you don't have a reality filter? Do you automatically lose the response, or is reality filter just a mostly useless program? Also, if you do manage to override a node's setting with your own, does everyone else on the node see your setting take over as well?

3. Registering Sprites.
There's no downside to it. Really, there's not. Every technomancer should be walking around with their charisma number of registered sprites, each with approximately infinity services left, because reregistering can go on ad infinitum, right?

4. Copy Protection.
Here's a good question. Obviously, pirated programs and so forth are the norm, it says so quite clearly. But my question, then, is why does it include prices for these programs? And a better question, why isn't every person out there walking around with all Rating 6 programs running on their commlink that they downloaded from Bittorrent? Or why can't one person in a shadowrunning team buy a program and then give it to all his buddies? Or why can't a single hacker program a rating six something and then spread it to his team and everyone else on the matrix for free?

5. DocWagon.
I think DocWagon is cool, but there's not enough rules about it to make it useful. For starters, when is DocWagon summoned? When a person's physical track becomes full? Then the person will be dead within the minute, not nearly enough time for DocWagon to get there and stabilize them. Do the tags or whatever that DocWagon puts into them upon signing up make wireless noise that security at the team's next job could pick up? If so, that would make DocWagon nearly useless for shadowrunners. Also, it says that resuscitation and HTR service carries high prices, but it doesn't say what those prices are, so those freebies that you get from having a higher level contract don't really do much. Does DocWagon provide a discount on long-term recovery? Do they ask questions, i.e. would they treat a customer (runner) who is still hot from a job without turning him over to Lone Star?

6. Smartlink.
It says that with smartlink you can stick your gun around a corner and see what's there and shoot at it, all without exposing more than your hand. It seems like this would make characters, y'know, unfairly invincible in a firefight. Also, the rules for cover in general have me a bit confounded. Say you're in a T hallway, and on your pass you run from the left side of the T to the right side of the T, so you start and end your movement behind very solid walls, but in between you shoot the poor saps down the long end of the T. Do they have any way to shoot back at you? After all, at any point they could act, you're behind total cover.


I've gotta say, the Shadowrun book really likes to spread rules around, so to track down everything that's going on in a firefight you have to look up rules for ammo, firing modes, guns, skills, modifiers, armor, damage, et cetera, et cetera, and they're all scattered about. But also, and this is the important bit, I am really liking Shadowrun, and so is the rest of my group, even if we still don't know what, technically, we are doing. Sorry I made my questions so long, but to anyone who takes the time to help me out, thank you!

[coolgrafix]

[FrankTrollman]

Welcome aboard, I'm glad you are enjoying the game.

[Buster]

I'll try to answer the copyright questions.

Average citizens don't copy programs for the same reason people don't now. It's illegal and corp types don't want a stain on their record because they want to remain wageslaves.

One houserule states that copy protection in 2070 is adaptive which means you only get one free copy per net hit. Therefore you need to spend a bunch of time copying a file for each of your buddies. Also, the copy protection may have some sort of data bomb when you glitch that makes a call to the local Lone Star.

If you wrote the program yourself, you have the sourcecode and can therefore make infinite copies for free. I would guess there are all kinds of low rating programs in free open source sites just like there are today. But if you want the good stuff, you'll have to work for it one way or another.

[hobgoblin]

1. its the whole process that goes faster. the process of acquire target, id target, aim at target, blow target away. if you watch matrix, think of neo as having high level wired reflexes.

2. without reality filter you dont loose anything, because you dont gain anything either. the loss when using reality filter and not winning the contest with the target host is from the conflict of instructions that create.

its like trying to hold two conversations at the same time.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[Eleazar]

1. Yep, this has been brought up a lot on the forums. What ends up happening is that everyone gets multiple initiative passes. So instead of extra IPs being a bonus they are more of a necessity. You really don't have any choice in the matter, only the illusion of one.
2. Works exactly as you described. If you don't have a reality filter and they do, you automatically lose.
3. Don't know much about Technomancers. Waiting for someone else here. Sounds right though.
4. Good question, in fact I asked the same thing, and received rather unrealistic answers in my opinion. People responded that pirated programs do not work as well, that you can't update them, they aren't fully functional, etc. Obviously coming from people not to well informed about piracy, no offense to those people. Obviously the GM can not allow rating 6 programs for free. Most have ruled that the hacker in the party can start out with them, and then remove the copyright protection, but can not just simply download them. I know it doesn't make sense and isn't congruent to the fluff, but it preserves game balance.
5. Does anyone use Docwagon here on the forums? To answer your questions I think SR3 books are needed.
6. Good point, though you will have minuses for shooting on the run.

Yes it does tend to spread the rules and then certain rules and fluff you look for is hidden in some sidebar or some other easy to miss text.

[Jaid]

1) yes. multiple initiative passes are very powerful. generally speaking, 2 is a big difference compared to 1, and 3 is a fairly significant difference. 4 IPs vs 3 IPs is not all that huge of a deal imo, however. it is worth noting that getting 4 IPs at chargen is extremely difficult, and that both ways of doing so carry hefty drawbacks (that is, the adept power costs 5 power points, leaving you almost nothing left, and the spell must be sustained manually since you can't put it in a sustaining focus at high enough force to get 4 IPs). this is intentional; those with multiple IPs are basically specialised at taking on multiple weaker opponents. just don't forget, even someone with 4 IPs is not as scary as 4 people otherwise the same with 1 IP each; if he's not having problems with security, it's because you're not using security to call for backup like you're supposed to, and especially security should be calling in stuff like drone support, summoned/bound spirits, etc.

2) if you have no response filter, there is no chance of getting +1 response, but no chance of losing response either. there isn't really any indication of how to handle the response increase or reduction, but i personally would handle it the same as losing response due to program overload, per the FAQ. (basically, it only changes tests where your response is directly used; it does not affect your maximum system rating, the number of programs you can run, etc).

3) given time (remember, 1 hour per rating of the sprite to be registered) and sufficient first aid, you've got it more or less right. considering most TMs start off pretty weak in the meat world in exchange for dominating in the matrix, this isn't really all that big of a deal, imo. after all, the hacker can just have agents and drones with no limitation other than resources/money to run them.

4) the costs for owning gear at chargen are not necessarily to be thought as money. you may have paid nothing for them and coded them yourself... it's resources, not money, that you buy with BP, and those resources are simply balanced as far as what you can get based on the book value of those resources, measured in nuyen.

there are, however, various suggested fluff reasons why you can't just download rating 6 hacking programs (most of these involve the fact that if anyone can download it, anyone can devise protection from it/crack it's defenses by analyzing it, which results in it losing rating). that being said, there isn't really anything keeping the hacker from passing out copies other than possible roleplaying issues (loading IC on the team's commlinks, quite possible... that's what it's for. loading black hammer on the team's commlinks? not so likely, imo) in any event, if you wish to start with programs, you should pay the resource cost. if your hacker gives them out to everyone immediately after chargen, then i would say you are a bunch of metagaming bums, and you should repent and change your ways =P (in any event, everyone does need to have the hardware to run the software on, and the skills to use the software efficiently, for the most part). remember, this is not the sort of game where you can always trust your team as soon as you meet them ;)

5) iirc, there's a bit more information on this in augmentation. i'll see about looking that up for you. personally, i just don't see docwagon being a good choice for runners, though...

6) there are modifiers for cover. as i recall, they are something like -1 to attack for the person with cover, and -4 to attack them. use those modifiers and you should be fine ;) also, don't forget that some cover can be simply shot through (see the rules for attacking through barriers for details) which may devalue the cover further if they aren't behind something fairly solid ;)

i will also refer you to the delay action. it is possible with this action to interrupt someone else's action... so yes, a security team can wait for the runners to put their head around the corner, and *then* shoot, actually going before the runner gets to make their own attack.

[Eleazar]

[Eleazar]

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[Ophis]

6 Having previously readied an action to shoot any hostile in view. I'd possibly use surprise rules here. I also divide all movement over four passes so that people with one pass don't complete their moves quicker than wired people.

[Jaid]

[Eleazar]

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, I'd say the relative inneffectiveness of reality filters is only an issue if some poor deluded TM picks the complex form up, since that'd be one hell of a karma sink for a less-than-vanilla 'trix ability. It'd also hit me as goofy from a fluff perspective, since they don't need no stinkin' metaphors just to feel at home on the matrix. Still, it's a fun program RP wise. Changing the world around your opponent's eyes and then stomping them in matrix combat is stylish.

Anyway, yeah, extra initiative passes sound stronger in theory than they are in practice. Shadowrun can easily be sufficiently lethal to police itself. To make a D&D metaphor, giving a character wired reflexes is like giving a level 1 fighter 4 attacks a round in exchange for never gaining hps when he levels. Street Samurai have a tendency to run around beating the crap out of things and looking damn near invincible- right up until some security guard gets lucky with a long burst right to the brainpan. Also, 2 security guards can just take some Jazz (a tailored combat drug with minimal side effects designed for LoneStar) and have 4 IPs between the two of them without having to go through having their entire nervous system rewired. So IPs are important, and I wouldn't leave home without at least a drug capable of giving an extra one in a pinch, but having more than 3 isn't exactly god mode either.

[Buster]

[hyzmarca]

[Buster]

[Gelare]

Wow, talk about a lively response, I went to eat dinner, came back, and poof! Thanks all. So, let me see if I can summarize what's been decided here.

1. Yes, initiative passes are broken. Deal with it. Two well-placed shots will kill a troublesome PC anyway.

2. Reality Filters, though very cool from a flavor perspective, just don't do a damn thing.

3. For the most part, yeah, technomancers can be ridiculous with their registered sprites.

4. Copy protection is still a bit of a question. I still have not seen a satisfactory answer to the question of why any old hacker, by using the software coding rules in the book, can't just make a rating 6 something and post it for free all over the Matrix, and why, consequently, everyone doesn't run around with rating 6 everythings on their commlink.

5. So the consensus is, DocWagon sucks? That makes me sad. They're such a cool idea. Cost enough, too.

6. Undecided. So can people just hide behind steel walls, using their smartlinked guns as their eyes and, umm, guns? And have full cover all the time?

So, how about those remaining questions, about copy protection and cover/smartlinks? Can we come to a consensus on that? In my game with regards to copy protection I just said, no, you can't, because having the hacker give all his programs to the technologically deficient rest of the party (the mage is incompetent in the whole electronics skill group and has gremlins 3) would just be truly broken. But I'd like to give a better reason than DM intervention, if I could.

[jklst14]

3. One of the PC's died from the Fading damage he took when trying to Register a sprite during downtime. Granted, he was pushing the envelope a little (it was Rating 6 and he had a Resonance of 5). He had to burn a point of Edge to survive.

5. As for DocWagon, one of the old SR2 or SR3 books has a ton of info on them. I forget which one. Maybe the Neo Anarachists Guide to Real Life?

-JKL

[coolgrafix]

[coolgrafix]

[Wakshaani]

Yeah, unfortunately, extra initiative passes can make or break a combat character. Now, in their defense, current gunplay types are horribly slow compared to real world stuff. For example, I've got a good, but not fantastic, fast draw, averaging about 0.22 seconds to draw and shoot on target, with a fastest of .015 ... The fastest is, literally, faster than the human eye can follow or a normal camera can fully track. And those are real human beings (Fire up "Quick draw" on YouTube sometime for examples.)

At the 400 point level, if you don't have extra passes, you do NOT need to be near a fight if you can help it.



Reality Filtes are hard to work with as they stand but will probably get expanded at some point in the future. The cloest that I can come up with is to compare them to Windows (egads!) ... You get used to Windows, you know where stuff is located, and, thanks to using the industry standard, you can handle programs pretty well. If, in contrast, you're using a different system, one that is better tailored to your exact needs, you can operate better than a standard user ... until you run into software that doesn't interact with your personal operating system. Having to deal with something that isn't familiar, you just aren't as good as you normally are.





Registering needs a little work. Personally, I'd houserule it to 1 Karma to make the attempt... in a single blow, you put a cost, but not TOO big of a cost, on the action, which prevents a million billion Registered Sprites and keeps people from registering until they get max hits each time. It's a House Rule, and, admitedly, a kludge, but.




Program hacking is a huge hole. Lots of people talk about how common it is in the real world, but, as an example of a non-savy computer guy, I couldn't tell you how it gets done or where to find such things. It's WAY over my head. I'd imagine that the corps try to Napster it, flooding the Matrix with hacked, but non-functional malware types, to try and snag people searching online for stuff, just like Napster would be filled with broken mp3's of popular songs, to make it not worth the time or effort to snag freebies.

I'd LOVE to see RIAA Ninjas, however. While silly, it'd also just be fantasticly fun. :)

Another Houserule you could use would be to make programs have an availability... common use of Rating X 2, Hacking of Rating X3 ... at least make them work for the stuff.




Never had anyone use Docwagon, so, here, I'm out of the loop. Shadowrunners shouldn't have health insurance. :)



For wall safety, yes, smart people hide and shoot. Of course, other smart people use grenades, which they throw out to drive people out of cover.

[Marwynn]

[hyzmarca]