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> two weapons and recoil, recoil per shot, or per weapon?
mfb
post Aug 1 2007, 09:41 PM
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i didn't find any answer to this question during a quick search. hoping for some clarification.

QUOTE (SR4 page 142)
Semi-automatic weapons that fire a second shot receive a -1 dice pool modifier for the second shot only.

in other words, you don't rack up recoil modifiers for firing a second shot--you rack up recoil modifiers for firing a second shot with the same weapon. so when firing two semi-auto weapons twice in the same round, the recoil modifiers look like this:

1st shot, 1st weapon: no recoil (since this is the first shot fired with weapon 1)
1st shot, 2nd weapon: no recoil (since this is the first shot fired with weapon 2)
2nd shot, 1st weapon: -1 recoil from weapon 1, no recoil from weapon 2 (since it's only been fired once, it hasn't racked up a recoil penalty yet)
2nd shot, 2nd weapon: -1 recoil from weapon 1, -1 recoil from weapon 2.

i suppose an argument could be made that the second shots happen simultaneously, ergo the recoil from each would apply to both. that's somewhat counterintuitive, though--if you haven't rolled for the second shot, it's odd that recoil from that second shot would apply to anything yet.

am i misreading the rules? have they been errata'd?
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Eleazar
post Aug 1 2007, 10:09 PM
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I think the same way you do mfb, though I have been told I am wrong and that the recoil modifier increases each time a gun is fired. This doesn't make sense to me because the majority of what is absorbing that recoil is the shooting arm and not the whole body.
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mfb
post Aug 1 2007, 10:50 PM
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sensible or not, it's certainly what the rules state.
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neko128
post Aug 2 2007, 01:35 AM
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As per the paragraph spanning pages 141 and 142:

QUOTE

Attacker Using a Second Firearm
Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one
in each hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing
so, however, requires that the character split his dice pool between
the attacks. If two separate skills are being used (Pistols
and Automatics), use the smallest dice pool. Split the pool before
applying modifiers. Two-gun attacks also negate any dice
pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights. Additionally, any
uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also
apply to the other weapon.


So yes; any uncompensated recoil from each applies to both.
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Ol' Scratch
post Aug 2 2007, 02:03 AM
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Yes, it does seem to work as you described. It's a small perk for all the negatives that come with it, I suppose.

You basically choose to give your opponents extra but more easily absored shots versus fewer but harder to resist shots. If your Skill and Agility is high enough, it can be a tough choice in any situation where it's a concern. But if you're just average or not, you'd be pretty foolish to split your dice pool.

I mean, without Ambidexterity you're already getting a -4 dice pool penalty (no Smartlink, -2 for using off-hand) over a single weapon shot. So if that's ignorable, either through really high dice pools and/or Ambidexterity, then, yeah, going Wyatt Earp-like isn't that bad of an option. But in no way does it beat using just one weapon in all situations like it used to. Which is a Good Thing™.
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Sterling
post Aug 2 2007, 02:18 AM
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So it would really be:

Right hand: Shot one is fired, no recoil. (First shot is free).

Left hand: Shot two is fired, +1 recoil (from first shot).

Right hand: Shot three is fired, +2 recoil (first and second shots).

Left hand: Shot four is fired, +3 recoil (first, second, and third shots).

So if you plan to dual weild pistols, better make sure each pistol has some decent recoil compensation. For SMGs, even more recoil compensation's needed. Plus don't forget, if you're one of the three Street Samurai in SR4 that don't have the positive quality: ambidexterity, you're down two dice on your off hand attacks.

So Samurai Bob has two predators, an agility of four, and a pistols:predator skill of six. He's not ambidextrous, so he has ten dice to split (five each), minus two on his off hand.

Now he's at five and three dice for his right and left hand shots (respectively), and with no recoil, he wouldn't be able to take that 4th shot. First shot (first with right), five dice, no penalty. Second shot (first with the left) three dice, minus one die penalty. Third shot (second right), five dice, minus two, so three dice total, and fourth shot (second left) he's down to three dice minus three dice so he fires and misses by a country mile.

Obviously there's weapons and accessories and cyberwear that will let you fire those shots with very few penalties, but even if Bob has the full five in each hand, he's now looking at visibility modifiers, range modifiers, etc (which I left out of the above example just to make it somewhat easy to follow). In partial light conditions (-2) with a light wound (-1) and at long range (-2) poor Bob has zero dice if he decides to try to fire off four attacks in a pass. We're not even going into multiple targets (-2 per additional target)

It'd be up to the GM if, in the above near-perfect conditions (no penalties beyond recoil and off-hand) if Bob could fire the two left handed shots first (three dice then two dice) and THEN fire the right handed shots (three dice and then two again) in order to have all four attacks with a small chance of hitting. As a GM I think I wouldn't mind if a player decided to choose three/two/three/two as opposed to five/three/three/zero. But that's up to the GM of the game you're in, after all.
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Ol' Scratch
post Aug 2 2007, 02:20 AM
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Err, I misread the original post slightly. My reading of the rules imply that the modifiers would be:

First Two Shots: No recoil from either pistol. They're both assumed to have been fired simultaneously and haven't built up any recoil as a result.
Second Two Shots: Each pistol has generated one point of recoil, both suffer a -2 penalty.
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l33tpenguin
post Aug 2 2007, 02:41 AM
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What sort of recoil compensation is available for pistols? I know machine pistols can have gas vent and stocks, what is available for reg. pistols?

I like two pistol builds, I think they are fun with a good deal of flair, but the restrictions against them are sometimes just silly. There isn't any reason, imo, that laser or smart link bonus shouldn't apply.

Having to half your dice pool, which I agree with, can be a handicap enough. I typically would use two firearms for most situations, typical mercs, sec guards, etc. but when it came to dealing with an actual threat I would always holster one of them to take full advantage of my dicepool. A single weapon is almost always preferable when dealing with a more difficult opponent.
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Jaid
post Aug 2 2007, 02:52 AM
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QUOTE (l33tpenguin)
What sort of recoil compensation is available for pistols? I know machine pistols can have gas vent and stocks, what is available for reg. pistols?

pretty much nothing. unless it's built in (for examples, see the hammerli or the fubuki).

i guess there's always the trusty cyberarm gyro thing...
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l33tpenguin
post Aug 2 2007, 03:05 AM
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I'd bring up the whole "But in the real world..." but we all know what results from those statements :P
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Sterling
post Aug 2 2007, 03:16 AM
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I can see your point there, Doctor, I think the FAQ helps clear it up.

If you want, it helps to think of it as one pistol that fires four shots. The FAQ makes the claim that every bullet fired in an action phase incurs a recoil penalty, except for the first. So in the case of two pistols, only the first shot fired would be without recoil.

From the FAQ:

"There are several things to keep in mind about recoil:
a) The first bullet never counts.
b) Every bullet fired in an Action Phase after the first incurs a cumulative -1 recoil dice pool modifier.
c) Each point of recoil compensation counteracts 1 point of recoil modifier."

So if someone was to create the four-armed gunbunny from hell, they'd have a tough time managing all the recoil unless they invested heavily in recoil compensation.

Actually, it only would take a recoil compensator with a rating two in each gun to negate any recoil penalty for firing two guns in an action phase, so a gas-vent three pr gun would help keep the four-armed gunbunny from being buried under a mountain of recoil penalties.... as long as he wasn't using pistols.

Of course, I am in no way telling anyone how to run their game, if you as a gm decide that recoil is handled in the "Doctor Funkenstein" method, it's your call.

As for recoil options for pistols.. umm.. you're kinda raw boned. I guess the only method that's in the game is the cyberarm gyromount.

As for laser sights not working with more than one weapon at a time, yeah, that's kind of strange. Either the dot's on the target or it isn't. But the rules have never allowed dual weapon use with smartlinks, something about having to deal with two crosshairs being too much for your average joe's brain. If you're going to dual with machine pistols or SMGs, there's tracer rounds which will give you beter dice at longer range than a smartlink would (plus one die at short, plus two at long, and plus three at extreme).
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toturi
post Aug 2 2007, 03:44 AM
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QUOTE (Sterling)
I can see your point there, Doctor, I think the FAQ helps clear it up.

If you want, it helps to think of it as one pistol that fires four shots. The FAQ makes the claim that every bullet fired in an action phase incurs a recoil penalty, except for the first. So in the case of two pistols, only the first shot fired would be without recoil.

From the FAQ:

"There are several things to keep in mind about recoil:
a) The first bullet never counts.
b) Every bullet fired in an Action Phase after the first incurs a cumulative -1 recoil dice pool modifier.
c) Each point of recoil compensation counteracts 1 point of recoil modifier."

So if someone was to create the four-armed gunbunny from hell, they'd have a tough time managing all the recoil unless they invested heavily in recoil compensation.

Actually, it only would take a recoil compensator with a rating two in each gun to negate any recoil penalty for firing two guns in an action phase, so a gas-vent three pr gun would help keep the four-armed gunbunny from being buried under a mountain of recoil penalties.... as long as he wasn't using pistols.

Of course, I am in no way telling anyone how to run their game, if you as a gm decide that recoil is handled in the "Doctor Funkenstein" method, it's your call.

As for recoil options for pistols.. umm.. you're kinda raw boned. I guess the only method that's in the game is the cyberarm gyromount.

As for laser sights not working with more than one weapon at a time, yeah, that's kind of strange. Either the dot's on the target or it isn't. But the rules have never allowed dual weapon use with smartlinks, something about having to deal with two crosshairs being too much for your average joe's brain. If you're going to dual with machine pistols or SMGs, there's tracer rounds which will give you beter dice at longer range than a smartlink would (plus one die at short, plus two at long, and plus three at extreme).

You could interpret the FAQ that way, but again the FAQ is sufficiently ambiguous enough to mean that the first bullets from both guns never count and given that the example are all single weapon questions, there is no clear indication that it is meant for 2 weapons as well. You certainly can apply your interpretation to the situation and call it the FAQ answer but another GM can also use the FAQ to mean both 1st bullets don't count and call that the FAQ answer. And to me, you'd be both right.
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Fortune
post Aug 2 2007, 03:53 AM
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QUOTE (Sterling)
Actually, it only would take a recoil compensator with a rating two in each gun to negate any recoil penalty for firing two guns in an action phase

Technically, with pistols it would only require 1 point of RC for each gun. One point would offset each weapon's first shot, thereby eliminating the penalties altogether.
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l33tpenguin
post Aug 2 2007, 04:22 AM
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it depends on how you read the rules.

if the first shoot from each gun is 'free' than 1 point each is fine.
if only the first shot from the first gun is free, then 2 points is needed
gun1 shot 1, free
gun 2 shot 1, 1 point
gun 1 shot 2, 2 points
gun 2 shot 2, 3 points

you would actually only need 3 points total, one in one and two in the other, but 2 points to each gun would eliminate any ambiguity as to which gun would require 1 point and which two.

As for two smart links... if someone can manage to point two weapons at a target(or two) at once, they obviously have the mental control and physical prowess to accomplish this. A smart link just gives you more precise control over something you can already do. If its really that confusing, I'd just change the color of one of the sights in my vision

*edit*
After thinking it over, I LIKE the recoil idea. It works from a game balance point of view. From a single weapon, for every bullet after the first you gain recoil. Even though there are two sources, they are treated as one weapon system.

As for smart links, I would at the least have half the bonus applied to each weapon, similar to how you have to halve your dice pool.
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Fortune
post Aug 2 2007, 06:50 AM
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QUOTE (l33tpenguin)
if only the first shot from the first gun is free, then 2 points is needed

The first shot of the second gun would be 'free' as well ... its own recoil already compensated for, and no recoil to be added from the first shot. Only the third shot (second shot with the first gun) would start to rack up recoil, which while not added to that third shot itself, would affect the fourth shot (second shot, second gun). :D
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Sterling
post Aug 2 2007, 07:40 AM
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QUOTE (l33tpenguin)


*edit*
After thinking it over, I LIKE the recoil idea.  It works from a game balance point of view. From a single weapon, for every bullet after the first you gain recoil.  Even though there are two sources, they are treated as one weapon system.

The reason I'd rule that way (and do, in my games) is that it does add one more disadvantage to dual pistol use. Keeping dual pistol use as a semi-uncommon 'signature' move means there's less chance you're going to see most PC firearms characters all using two pistols. Recoil compensation is just one more thing to detract from dual pistol use. Of course, nothing says you HAVE to shoot four times, you'd be within your rights to have your pistols on hidden arm slides, and only fire one if you wanted. This lets you focus all your dice on two shots, and then open up with both guns if you just need to throw some heavy intimidation (and nothing should force a professionalism test than a gunslinger adept with enough dice to use two pistols and hit four separate targets) or, alternatively, stick-n-shock a few people to take the fight out of them.

I'm not saying the 'every first shot is free' folks are wrong. My take on it after reading the FAQ's line that 'every bullet after the first means recoil applies' means I feel pretty comfortable in my interpretation. Of course the penalty of pool splitting before modifiers is heavy enough that not docking someone the second first point won't make for a game-breaking experience. And again, people can (and should) run their games making judgement calls on rules the way they see fit, so I'm not going to argue for the sheer sake of 'here's why you should do it *MY* way', but for the sake of getting other people's opinions and going from there. Who knows, the next poster could wax eloqeuntly enough that I'd agree with them and let them put a cybereye in their balance tail to boot.

Technically, the debate hinges on just one point, which means it's probably the least disruptive interpretation variation the boards have seen since I've started reading them.
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Fortune
post Aug 2 2007, 08:04 AM
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QUOTE (Sterling)
My take on it after reading the FAQ's line that 'every bullet after the first means recoil applies'

The next line of the FAQ states ...

QUOTE (FAQ)
Each point of recoil compensation counteracts 1 point of recoil modifier


If both pistols have a point of recoil compensation, then no uncompensated recoil accrues until after the third shot (if then).
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Ol' Scratch
post Aug 2 2007, 09:20 AM
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It's assumed the weapons are being fired simultaneously (as opposed to, say, right-left, right-left). Thus the first Simple Action has both weapons being fired at the same time, neither of which has generated any recoil at that time. It's not until the next Simple Aciton that either has a point of recoil, at which point they both suffer 2 points of recoil when fired simultaneously.

No recoil on the first shot, two on the second. Applies to both weapons.
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Fortune
post Aug 2 2007, 11:34 AM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
It's assumed the weapons are being fired simultaneously (as opposed to, say, right-left, right-left). Thus the first Simple Action has both weapons being fired at the same time, neither of which has generated any recoil at that time. It's not until the next Simple Aciton that either has a point of recoil, at which point they both suffer 2 points of recoil when fired simultaneously.

No recoil on the first shot, two on the second. Applies to both weapons.

Exactly.

Unless each pistol has one point of recoil compensation (somehow). In that case, there would be no recoil modifiers.
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Dashifen
post Aug 2 2007, 01:36 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid)
QUOTE (l33tpenguin @ Aug 1 2007, 09:41 PM)
What sort of recoil compensation is available for pistols?  I know machine pistols can have gas vent and stocks, what is available for reg. pistols?

pretty much nothing. unless it's built in (for examples, see the hammerli or the fubuki).

i guess there's always the trusty cyberarm gyro thing...

Also the Foot Anchor from Aug. provides some recoil comp.
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Dizzman
post Aug 3 2007, 05:33 AM
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Hopefully the cheesiness that is custom grip will reappear in Arsenal. Ahhh, custom grip, how I miss you...
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Sterling
post Aug 3 2007, 08:22 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Aug 2 2007, 07:20 PM)
It's assumed the weapons are being fired simultaneously (as opposed to, say, right-left, right-left).  Thus the first Simple Action has both weapons being fired at the same time, neither of which has generated any recoil at that time.  It's not until the next Simple Aciton that either has a point of recoil, at which point they both suffer 2 points of recoil when fired simultaneously.

No recoil on the first shot, two on the second.  Applies to both weapons.

Exactly.

Unless each pistol has one point of recoil compensation (somehow). In that case, there would be no recoil modifiers.

While I can see your point on the 'each weapon fires at the same time' due to both first shots occuring at the same time in a simple action, the rules mention that "any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon." If there was a weapon that fired two-round bursts in a simple action, there'd be a negative one die pool penalty for the first burst, and a neg three on the second, by the RAW as I interpret it. The 'not enough bullets' rule on page 143 could be read to contradict the thought of firing two rounds with zero recoil penalty as well.

I just don't see how if you fire four shots, even two sets of two fired simultaneously, that it gets around the fact that after one shot is fired, recoil applies and uncompensated recoil applies to both weapons. In realistic terms, the only manner in which a human (AFAIK) can fire two rounds simultaneously is by using a double-barreled weapon that is set to discharge both barrels on one trigger pull. The second you say 'I fire both guns at my target(s)', you have to identify the first shot (by rolling dice, etc) and your first (possibly only) target. That's where I have to default to the FAQ, nebulous as it may seem.

I guess what it boils down to is that we agree to disagree. It's not a big deal, you've explained your points very well, the both of you. It really seems to hinge on the perception of which to apply first, the recoil rule (every shot after the first) or two-hand rule (two shots in the same simple action).
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Fortune
post Aug 3 2007, 08:38 AM
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The key word in the rules, as I see it, is 'uncompensated'.

"Any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon."

After firing one shot, a pistol with one point of recoil compensation will still have racked up no recoil penalties, because the recoil has been 'compensated' for. A second shot with that pistol would garner recoil (which would be applicable if a third bullet was fired, as in the case of burst firing pistols), as the compensation has already been used.

Adding a second pistol into the mix (also with one point of recoil compensation) would not change the equation. The first shot from that pistol would not have any uncompensated recoil from the first pistol (either by benefit of simultaneous firing or the recoil comp on the first pistol), so suffers no penalties.

Subsequently, the second shot from the first pistol suffers no recoil modifiers from either gun, as both of the first shots have been compensated for.

The only sticking point is the second shot from the second pistol.

If you believe that the pistols are fired simultaneously, then there is still no recoil modifier, since the first shots from each pistol have had the recoil compensated for already, and the second shots are going off at the same time, so cannot affect each other.

If, on the other hand, you believe that the pistols fire left-right-left-right (or vice versa), then the second shot from the second pistol would indeed suffer from a -1 recoil modifier as a result of pistol #1's second shot.

The only real difference is that last shot. :)
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l33tpenguin
post Aug 3 2007, 09:04 AM
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QUOTE (Sterling)
I just don't see how if you fire four shots, even two sets of two fired simultaneously, that it gets around the fact that after one shot is fired, recoil applies and uncompensated recoil applies to both weapons. In realistic terms, the only manner in which a human (AFAIK) can fire two rounds simultaneously is by using a double-barreled weapon that is set to discharge both barrels on one trigger pull. The second you say 'I fire both guns at my target(s)', you have to identify the first shot (by rolling dice, etc) and your first (possibly only) target. That's where I have to default to the FAQ, nebulous as it may seem.

I guess what it boils down to is that we agree to disagree. It's not a big deal, you've explained your points very well, the both of you. It really seems to hinge on the perception of which to apply first, the recoil rule (every shot after the first) or two-hand rule (two shots in the same simple action).

In all honesty, if firing two weapons near simultaneous (on a fraction of a second scale of time, a human can't possibly do two things at exactly the same time) neither weapon would realistically be effected by the recoil of the other. So, to say that neither first shot would be effected by recoil.

That said, from a game mechanic point of view, I think it makes better sense to count recoil in the "right, left, right, left" method, since any other time a second round is fired by a character, it has recoil applied to it.
of course, I guess, since a person firing multiple rounds from a single weapon doesn't have to halve their dice pool they do have an advantage...

by the "both weapons fired at once method, would three round bursts from double machine pistols go 0, 2, 4 points of recoil? Ouch:(
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Stinger
post Aug 10 2007, 05:12 AM
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I've been following this thread with interest as I'm getting ready to play a two-gun fighter.
My character is Ambidextrous, with Pistol 6 and Agility 5, with a specialization in Semi-autos (+2), and reflex recorder for the Pistol skill (+1). His Predators are smartlinked (+2 per). Firing a single shot with one gun, with no other modifiers, gives him a total pool of 16 dice.

Using one gun in each hand, his pool is 14 (no smartgun mod for two-gun use), split to 7 dice.

If go with the recoil mods piling up interpretation, four shots would roll at 7,6,5, and 4 dice respectively.

If firing is simultaneous and recoil is exclusive to each weapon (which was my original interpretation before I started wondering and encountered this thread), then I roll 7,7,6,6.

I guess the reading I end up using is going to be a GM's decision, but I just want to see if that's right.

Also, does the target of those 4 shots get a Reaction roll against each shot (4 rolls total), or only one roll whose result applies to all four separately?
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