two weapons and recoil, recoil per shot, or per weapon? Options

[Ol' Scratch]

I really don't see skill Specializations as a modifier. And it's doubly odd that you're distinguishing them as something completely different (rules wise) as a Reflex Recorder.

The whole +2 aspect of it is seems to be there to make bookkeeping easier in the case you augment a skill for whatever reason. So instead of having Automatics (SMGs) 4(6)(8) you just have 4(6)(+2). That way you only have to ever update one number rather than two. The end effect is the same though; your still have a skill of 8 with SMGs just like a Reflex Recorder, not a +2 modifier with SMGs as per a Smartlink. It's reeeeaaaaally stretching it -- in the bad way -- to try and argue otherwise.

[mfb]

couldn't you have a Pistols reflex recorder, and Woo a pistol and an SMG?

[l33tpenguin]

Wouldn't you be using two different pools anyway, in that case? Automatics and Pistols?

How would you cover using two weapons using different pools? you obviously can't split their pools, so do you just halve them? That brings us back to how you split the pool as well. can you favor one or the other?

[mfb]

well, you use the lowest pool, if you've got two. seems to me that if you have a specializiation, that adds to your pool--unless you're using a gun you're not specialized with, in which case you use the lower pool (ie, no specialization).

[Ol' Scratch]

I'd say it would depend on which of the skills (with or without specialization) was lowest.

Say, for example, you have Pistols (Heavy Pistols) 3(+2) and Automatics 4. You grab a Streetline Special and an Uzi and go to town. In this case, Pistols is your lowest skill at 3 and is the one you use. Later, you ditch the Streetline Special and grab an Ares Predator. Now your Pistols skill is 5, making Automatics your lowest skill and thus the one you use while shooting both.

Seems to be both the nature and the intent of the rules in question. Makes sense as well as your specialization with Heavy Pistols still had the net effect of giving you +1 die on the test.

[l33tpenguin]

If specializations are added after the split, however, wouldn't you choose the smaller pool first, in both cases, pistols, then split the pool and add the specialization bonus after the split? Since specialization add after the split, they shouldn't count toward what you select to split? right?

[Ol' Scratch]

You're assuming specializations are added after. Which makes very little sense since it's a bookkeeping modifier for keeping track of your skills and skill levels, not a condition or combat modifier like a Smartlink or Visibility modifier is.

[mfb]

indeed. i don't see that specializations should be added after the split.

[hyzmarca]

[Ol' Scratch]

Reflex Recorders: "The reflex recorders adds a +1 dice pool bonus to a specific skill or skill group." --SR4 p. 340

Improved Ability: "This power gives you additional dice for use with a specific Active Skill. Dice purchased for the Active Skill carry over equally to any specializations of the skill you know." --SR4 p. 187

Both of those are modifiers, too. And in the case of the latter, they specifically mention your specialization for some strange reason. Thus, if you adhere to the silly notion that the +2 bonus for a specialization is a conditional modifier as opposed to a bookkeeping note, Improved Ability adds to that bonus AND your base skill! That's double your money right there! AND they all (Improved Ability, Skill Specializations, and Reflex Recorders) get added to your dice pool AFTER it gets split for dual-weilding! Yay for munchkinating!

Translation: Quit being stupid and trying to cheat.

[hyzmarca]

Improved Ability and Reflex Recorders were both errataed. They directly augment the skill and are limited by the skill's augmented limit.

The fact is that SR4 treats augmentations and bonuses/penalties very differently and for this reason they must be kept separate. The (+2) notation isn't just for easy bookkeeping. It denotes a fundamental difference in what a specialization is in relation to a skill.

[l33tpenguin]

[Ol' Scratch]

It was essentially +1/-1 with a specialization; the same net difference as in SR4. So if you bought a skill at 5 you could keep it as 5 or specialize for 4(6).

And that comment wasn't directed at you, penguin. It's just silly to get so pedantic when the intent of the rules in question is blatantly clear.

[Fortune]

Doc ... as hyzmarca said, check the Errata. The things I specified (Adept Improved Ability and Reflex Recorders) were addressed.

I'm not making things up, trying to be a cheat, or even getting into munchkin mode. This is the way the rules work.

If something in the rules is meant to add directly to the Skill, it specifically states as such (in the case of the above two items). If not, and you are directed to list something as (+x), then it is a dice pool modifier, in exactly the same fashion as visibility or other situational modifiers. These are all added after the Core Dice Pool is split, as they modify the specific actions taken, and not the total core ability (in the case of Specializations, the entirety of the Skill's many uses).

[mfb]

it doesn't make much sense, though. using a revolver instead of a heavy pistol is not a situational modifier, unless using a pistol instead of a shotgun is also a situational modifier. making specializations a special case is just arbitrary; there's no logic to it.

[hyzmarca]

Exactly.

If specializations work as suggested by Doctor Funkenstein, then they are incredibly broken one way or another.

In the unerrated RAW, a character with Agility 3 and Pistols (Heavy Pistols) 1(+2) would have a dice pool of 4 when using Heavy Pistols due to his 3 Agility and 1 Skill. His specialization couldn't come into play due to the modified skill cap of (base skill)*1.5.

This makes specializations useless is most cases and makes it incredibly stupid for anyone without a 6 in the skill to both specialize and take Improved Ability.

The errata specified that there is a difference between things that directly augment that skill and things which add dice to a test. Specializations have been clearly placed in the latter category while Improved Ability and Reflex Recorders are clearly placed in the former.

The specialization adds dice to tests with heavy pistols. It does not create a separate heavy pistols skill or modify the existing pistols skill. This ruling is necessary to make specializations as useful as they were intended to be. The side effect is that you add them after splitting the pool. Considering how damaging pool splitting is to all but the most min-maxed of characters, I don't see this as being much of a problem. It is only one die, for 'Swounds.

Edit: mfb, It is a situation modifier in the same way that that the old Home Ground Edge from SR3 is a situation modifier. It isn't that you are magically more skilled with heavy pistols than you are with other types of pistols. It is just that you are more comfortable with that particular category of pistol. It is familiarity rather than skill.

Edit2:There is an innate arbitrariness in separating skills from situations and in separating one skill from another. It is necessary to be arbitrary in any game. What matters is internal consistency and this is how specializations are categorized because they don't work if they are categorized any other way.

[Stinger]

OK, here's my last stab at getting this right.

Pistol 6 + Reflex Recorder 1 + Agility 5 = 12 dice base pool.

Two guns (Predators). Ambidextrous. No smartlink bonus. Specialization (Semi-Automatics +2). Gonna fire two shots with each weapon, right-left-right-left, same target, no other modifiers.

Split the base = 6/6

Shot 1 = Base 6 + Specialization 2 = 8

Shot 2 = Base 6 + Specialization 2 - Recoil 1 = 7

Shot 3 = Base 6 + Specialization 2 - Recoil 2 = 6

Shot 3 = Base 6 + Specialization 2 - Recoil 3 = 5

Is that it?

[mfb]

that's nonsensical, man. familiarity is skill. you gain skill by becoming more familiar with the subject matter. as far as usefulness goes, specializations are already the most efficient use of bp/karma in the game. how much more useful do they need to be?

i mean, i see the problem. either they're points of skill, in which case the caps apply and they suck, or they're a modifier and the caps don't apply--but they stop making much actual sense. i guess it's a special case either way. but if it's gonna be a special case, why not go all the way--make specializations ignore the skill cap, but otherwise count as skill?

[hyzmarca]

that's nonsensical, man. familiarity is skill. you gain skill by becoming more familiar with the subject matter.

as far as usefulness goes, specializations are already the most efficient use of bp/karma in the game, as far as skills go. how much more useful do they need to be?

i mean, i see the problem. either they're points of skill, in which case the caps apply and they suck, or they're a modifier and the caps don't apply--but they stop making much actual sense. i guess it's a special case either way. but if it's gonna be a special case, why not go all the way--make specializations ignore the skill cap, but otherwise count as skill?

There is an entire class of Powers, Accessories, Implants, and abilities that currently add dice to specific types of tests without modifying a skill or stat. Mechanically, specializations fit into that class perfectly. There is no need to further complicate things by creating a brand new class just for specializations.


Plus, if you rule that specializations add directly to the skill then min-maxing Adepts can fit in one extra point of IA. It isn't exactly game-breaking, but it will come up more often than the single extra die from dual-wielding specialized weapons under the common ruling.

As for the issue of familiarity being skill, that is sort of the point. We could go so far as to have separate skills for shooting a pistol in low-light and shooting a pistol in bright light, because a person who trains in low-light conditions might have better aim at night than he has in the day but we do not because there comes a point where skill granularity is just asinine and it is easier to just apply modifiers.

[Ol' Scratch]

[hyzmarca]

Just read the book. Just read the book, please.

[l33tpenguin]

[Ol' Scratch]

[Ophis]

I must admit, i dislike the specialization not being split, but it is what the rules say. I allow it to work both ways spec(automatics) gets split if you're using auto's spec(paired) counts as +2 for both guns. This allows people who wish to follow the way of Woo to use a suboptimal option (against good opponents) a bit more effectively.

[hyzmarca]

I know what the letter of the rules say. The intent is clear, and the intent is equally clear when it comes to using two weapons at once.

Yes, the intent is clear, it is just that the intent is not what you assume it to be. I understand quite well that the intent can be different from what is written, just take a look at the conversation regarding the Endowment of Astral Form.

What you seem to be missing, however, is that specializations are intended to be a dice pool modifier, not a full skill in their own right. They were full skills in previous editions, this was changed intentionally. They are now dice pool modifiers are are treated like other dice pool modifying abilities such as Combat Sense, Great Leap, and Kinesics.

This is necessary for the system of caps to work as it was intended to work. It is how the system was intended to work.

It has been clarified time and time again, in the FAQ and on this board. It has been clarified and dealt with so often that there is no longer any controversy, except on this particular application.


And it is not, in any way, cheese. I don't care what impact this has on two-weapon combat because two-weapon combat is completely and totally useless, even if specializations are added after splitting. I'm surprised that no one else is seeing this. There is not any possible situation in the game where a character is better off using two guns than he is using one gun.

The exception to the above paragraph does not lie in specialization bonuses, which will not be enough to prevent the split pools from being reduced to 0 in most situations, but in the application of Edge. Since Edge is added on a per test basis rather than a per-pool basis, it is possible to add full Edge separately to each half of the split pool.
This isn't cheesy, either, due to the limited nature of Edge, but it is usually necessary because negative modifiers will usually be greater than the two halves of the split pool and there is only one positive modifier that might apply (specialization).

I really don't care if you add specializations or any other modifier before or after splitting (except for Edge due to the necessity of longshot tests). But specialization is a modifier. There is no doubt about that, none at all.