 No hard limits on cash, set limits to soul |
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 Aug 2 2007, 10:14 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 323 Joined: 17-November 06 From: 1984 Member No.: 9,891  |
That's an urban myth. |
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Aug 2 2007, 01:45 PM
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#27
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MechRigger Delux Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,151 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Hanger 18, WPAFB Member No.: 1,657 |
That worked better when there were more pictures... but its about the truth. A Colt Manhunter might have been powerful, but it looked like ass (to me) and I wasn't gonna be using a bloody revolver, cause I wasn't a cowboy :D Remember, some of us still play for style 8) |
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Aug 2 2007, 02:16 PM
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#28
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Exactly, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with their decisions and there is nothing wrong with pointing out mistakes or rules that potentially have bad consequences.. but simply insulting them is unacceptable. There is a huge difference between constructive criticism and a blatant insult. Move by Wire is equipment for people who want to nearly kill themselves to make themselves absurdly fast. It always has been. It is something for Cyberzombies to give them an even bigger edge. It isn't a piece of equipment that PCs take unless they're in a position to become cyberzombies, and that is how it always has been. |
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Aug 2 2007, 02:37 PM
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#29
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
QFT |
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Aug 2 2007, 02:56 PM
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#30
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Wired 3 got the shaft intentionally. It's old tech: out of date and worthless. It probably isn't in production anymore, but that doesn't mean it no longer exists. You may see it in the old gaurd razorguy gaurding your target, or find it used at your local cyberdoc's, or start with it because your character concept is that of an old gaurd razorguy dragged back into the game. |
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Aug 2 2007, 02:59 PM
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#31
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
:rotfl: |
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Aug 2 2007, 03:05 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 212 Joined: 30-November 04 Member No.: 6,858 |
And the new rules seem to make it much easier to maintain and play a Cyberzombie. |
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Aug 2 2007, 03:37 PM
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#33
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Funny stuff. :) Anyway though, I think the OP is missing that the books and gear aren't all about the PCs, they're for the GMs too. Right now, I'm sure there's plenty of GMs out there who wouldn't mind having a few ultra low budget legacy tech type weapons and 'ware out there floating around on the streets but don't want to stat out their own. Nothing screams Z-zone like desperate people trying to defend their turf with ancient shotguns held together by rust and a duct taped stock. Putting things in the official books can help give name recognition too. Seeing that my opponent's got a streetline special in his hand does more for my immersion than "he's got a pocket pistol." |
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Aug 2 2007, 09:56 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Um, your argument is false. You stance is the same stance as players should pay 100 points to to play elves. Not all races need to be playable by PCs. Let's point out that NPCs have all hte resources the GM let's them have. Both in terms of money,time(at lest before th players know of them), and friends. The NPC essance is a largely mute point as well. The GM give them out items based on what they think that the NPC should have. In the end, more than 99% of the time an NPC with 6 or .01 essance is the same. The cost of money is mute. Crapy items are fine, the fact is that you could have say crappy reflexes that only gave you one pass, cost 100k and 1 essance a level.No PC would ever buy it...But NPCs could have it. So Whipstitch, how about make all metahumans cost 200 character points to play?Or make it so that shaman cannot bind spirits? Or that if you are an female you have diffrent cap of stats... The point is that NPCs should be treated like PCs and should only have gear that is reasonable. Take into account all costs, not just nuyen. So yes when buying a gun, some NPCs may not have the best guns but sometimes the players will be short on cash as well. But if I used a crappy gun now, it will not mean that I will suck for the rest of my life. Essance is a finite and isnon recoverable. |
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Aug 2 2007, 11:01 PM
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#35
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Whoa Whoa Whoa. The only place the cost differential you've mentioned is even an issue is high-grade wired reflexes. Standard grade wired and standard grade synaptic accelerators are two different things. One if for people more concerned with money than essence, the other is the other way around. Now alphaware and higher grade wired 3 is pointless, because it costs as much or more than standard synaptic accelerator 3, and still has a greater essence cost.
Everywhere else, the cyber/bioware in question is different enough in function that there's no strait comparison. They aren't going to cut wired reflexes. Aside from being a staple of the genre, the standard version is useful in it's role. Cyberware grades are a general rule, which is applied to any piece of ware. What, did you expect them to put extra text in the book just to point out that higher grade wired reflexes is pointless? You can put cyberspurs in your head, too, even though this is a poor choice as well. Not all interactions between two separate variables will be favorable, get over it. You are obviously smart enough to do the basic math to aviod the poor choice. Why on earth are you so hissy over this? |
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Aug 2 2007, 11:07 PM
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#36
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
jesus. use a damn spellchecker, Cynic. i am not subjecting myself to the horror of reading another of your posts until you start doing so.
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Aug 2 2007, 11:32 PM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
I am getting upset because it is a stable of the genre.
I am getting upset because people confuse because it is this way,for this the way it should be. Wired Reflexes sucks, but that is not my biggest problem. My problem is that either cyberware is better or worse. It is better than bio in the way of cyber eyes, but worse than Bio when it come to things like reflexes. I think that if you are going to make tow items that are the same thing but different flavor. Bio over metal they should be balanced in some way. Wired reflexes is old tech, hence it is cheaper and more essance...Delta Grade wired reflexes can't be old tech and are not cheaper,and still cost more essence. MbW is not old tech, is more essence and what? It is bigger..But it is so big that anyone who would get it can't fully use it. In the end essence is a immutable number that stays constant in every game. Money is not. NPCs do not need to worry about how much essence items cost because they are made by the GM. They are have whatever gear they need. The costs of items either in money or essence only really effect players. As I said before at least 99% of NPCs are the same with essence of .01 or 6. The essence cost of wired reflexes does not matter to NPCS. To nearly every the NPC is the same cost as Boosters. They are the same thing to NPCs, but to players... But go for it prove to me why NPCs care about costs, either money or essence costs. |
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Aug 2 2007, 11:57 PM
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#38
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
In other words, you want each enhancement to be worth a certain amount of nuyen. Then you figure out a discount off that base cost for how much essence it takes up. You want it to be perfectly balanced.
Go grab the rules for Mekton Zeta. You'll see what a system like that looks like. It's awesome. I love it. But you'll also notice it in it's perfect mathematical construction, it lacks even a quarter of the flavor that SR augmentation has. But it's not a staple (not stable) of the genre. Fairness is not a staple of the cyberpunk genre. That kind of perfectly balanced min-maxing is not something that any part of the rules does. Hell, take a look at Karma costs. The idea that cyberware is better at bioware at some things, and worse at others, is a staple of the genre. The idea that certain types of ware are bad choices, or obsolete, is part of the genre. If we took the time to balance that perfectly, then logically we have to extend it to every peice of ware, so that in all places cyber and bio overlap, the costs (factoring in the nuyen value of your soul) are even. But if you do that, you need to make sure that the nuyen costs of stat boosts uses the same BP at character generation that buying the stat does, so that one isn't better than the other. Don't forget to balance that perfectly against adept powers and magic spells. It's the only way to close any exploits and make sure that everything is equally powerful. NO thank you. Not only is it a lot of work, but it reduces the difference between cyber and bio (and in the far end of my slippery slope, magic and spells and spirits and natural ability) to mere fluff. It takes a beautiful system designed around a beautiful setting, and turns it into GURPS or BESM. |
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Aug 3 2007, 01:47 AM
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#39
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
That's not much of a rebuttal. There are plenty of races that shouldn't be playable by PCs, and if they were, they should cost incredible amounts of BP. Like Dragons for instance. Come up with a few trillion Karma and I might be convinced to let you play Dunkelzahn the Cyberzombie Great Dragon.
Again, the female and shaman thing is neither here nor there. And there's plenty of people out there in the sixth world with only 200 bps, actually. Heck, off the top of my head, you could make a human doctor with the sinner negative quality, 3s in all attributes and 3 points of the Biotech skill group and still have 15 points to spend on gear, giving him a networth of 75,000 nuyen. That'd be more than enough for a sedan, a few months of middle lifestyle, a wardrobe and a commlink. God, I'm so bored I'm feeding trolls. Apologies, everyone. |
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Aug 3 2007, 02:03 AM
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#40
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
If it is resulting in you crying yourself to sleep at night, why not just use the house rule that I, a huge n00b, have already seen suggested a bazillion times:
Wired 1: 11k 1 essence Wired 2: 22k 2 essence Wired 3: 33k 3 essence. Heck you could change the costs to 11k, 33k, and 66k respectively, they are still very competitive with synaptic accelerators. it's only one item of gear, and yeah it's clearly a stupid item of gear because of how the pricing structure works, but thats quite fixable. edit: horrible math error from quoting of top of my head. |
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Aug 3 2007, 03:08 AM
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#41
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Target Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 22-July 07 Member No.: 12,338 |
I feel a lot more pity for the poor bastard who decided to get a Fairlight Excalibur cut into his head in late 2063. Or Johnny Mnemonic, who burned a bunch of essence on Headware Memory. At least the guy who bought WR-III when it was hot still has a useful implant.
Anyway, WR3 has always cost 5 essence and a bunch of money. It certainly did in SR3, and I believe it did in 2 as well. Back in 1996, my roommate bought a big-screen TV -- rear projection, 45" diagonal, heavy, and it cost $3500+. You could walk into any store today and get a bigger, 1080p plasma or lcd for substantially less money. On the other hand, I GM a game, and WR-III could easily fit into an old-school villain. Veteran of the First Cola War (2053-2057) with Delta WR-III & other ware (paid for by Aztechnology/Pepsi). The company still owns his soul (the 0.15% that he has left), he'll never work off his debt (millions of :nuyen:) but technologically, he's junk -- too expensive to fix and easy to replace. If he were a building, they'd burn him down for the insurance. Instead, they throw him at high-risk projects and don't care much if he comes back intact. |
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Aug 3 2007, 04:09 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 5-February 05 Member No.: 7,053 |
Wow, choice! Can't fucking have that... Oh yeah, and as for wired reflexes sucking, every cyber-based character in our games has them at character generation, rating two, sometimes alpha, sometimes not. Being polite here, on the whole, your stance, cynicproject, does not seem to reflect that of someone who plays a lot of SR4, but rather someone who has a pet peeve that the world seems to have changed from his long-held perceptions. Being less polite: get over it. [Edit: Being less "less polite" now. Sorry Fisty.] |
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Aug 3 2007, 05:34 AM
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#43
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Try sticking to being more polite
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Aug 3 2007, 04:16 PM
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#44
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Indeed. Oh, and one thing a spellchecker won't catch for you, Cynic: If you mean to say that a point is of no practical significance, you say that the point is "moot", not "mute". A lot of people make that mistake. I'll agree that WR3 sucks, but hey, if you don't care about essence and just want to be as fast as possible for as cheap as possible, it's not a bad way to go. Other than that I pretty much completely disagree with you. There are a lot of bits of enhancement that do the same job, and some of them do it better than others, but what you almost never find is gear that does the exact same thing as something else but does it for less nuyen, less essence, better effects, better in every way. That is very rare, and if it does come up it's probably because one of the things is old tech that is included for the completeness of the setting (like Wired 3) |
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Aug 3 2007, 04:53 PM
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#45
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
No, I am someone who thinks money is not of a big of issue as essence. From what I gather from MBW...No one who would buy three level of it can even use three levels of it. I think that if you are going to make things different then make things different. Make all bio and cyber do the equivalent things, have the same costs or comparable costs. If you want bio that does things that cyber doesn't make bio that does what cyber doesn't.If you want cyber that does what bio doesn't.... Make them better because they do different things. As for every cyber-based character in your game. That is cool. Would they still do it if they knew they were getting one million euros after the first run and the first run had no combat? The point is no rules should punish people for style. just as gender,skin color, height,eye color, hair color, religion ECT doe snot cost you point.You should not suffer an unfair cost because you want cyber over bio. I do not care if cyberware is cheer and cost more essence as long as at some grade, and I do not even care if it is delta it is about the same in cost for both essence and money. So think of it this way, bio could be thought as off the shelf delta grade cyber...And you know what I wouldn't mind. The scary part is that you do not even want to go that far. You want to take what the book says and it is the word of the Zombies, so shall it be. |
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Aug 3 2007, 05:18 PM
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#46
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Wrong. The rules differences, the questions of efficiency, the crunch factor is what makes they style choice meaningful. If all choices were equal, then the difference between cyebrware and bioware would essentially be a special effect. It would cease to be a meaningful decision, because there'd be no real difference. Going for style is meaningful, in part, because you choose it over substance. People drive cars that are, objectively, peices of shit because they're cool. Most of them KNOW the car is shit, but don't care because being cool is more important. Most stylish clothing is horribly impractical for movnig about in. Think of all the shit that gets done on computers that could more easily and cheaply be done by hand, but gets computerized because computers are cool. It's not about punishing people for style. It's about choosing the stylish route, even when it's not the most advantageous choice. Its about putting style over substance. No one is forcing you to make your character builds super-efficent. |
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Aug 3 2007, 05:39 PM
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#47
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
But what you're saying is "make a game that isn't Shadowrun". Shadowrun has always, since the introduction of bioware, been about the hard decisions when it comes to augmentation. Read Cybertechnology. When you're finished, read it again. It seems that you're looking at augmentations (the objects, not the book) as being 100% rules oriented, and ignoring everything that everyone tells you when we say that the rules aren't the only thing that make up Shadowrun. You want to spend lots of money to be fast, but you don't want the essence hit? Get bio. You want to get fast cheap, like, stupid cheap, and consequences be damned? Get injected with chemicals. Sure, it can never be undone, you'll never get any faster, and it will really screw with you, but you're fast. (For the record, I don't know that this option still exists as of Augmentation, still haven't gotten to read it. :mad:) You want to get fast, have a bit of E to spare, and don't have the cash for that bio you've been eying? I mean, you'd really like to get the bio options, but you aren't fast enough to net the jobs that would pay you enough to get them. Catch damn 22, eh? Better just go for the wired reflexes. Maybe someday... I don't know how better to put this. Yes, you have to make choices. No, those choices are not 100% rules oriented? (Rather, they can be, but then you end up with a "best way", as any optimizer can tell you.) But that's how it is in Shadowrun. Edit: Well said, PlatonicPimp. |
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Aug 3 2007, 05:47 PM
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#48
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MechRigger Delux Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,151 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Hanger 18, WPAFB Member No.: 1,657 |
Didn't we already cover style vs substance at the beginning of the page :grinbig:
I think the problem Cynic has with this is that the one side of the crunchy rules say the same thing, so he thinks the other side should too. I think he misses out completely on understanding how it effects the cost side of the thing. The whole Essence to money ration is what makes Bio different from Cyber, and why the game doesn't stagnate under becoming a homogeneous pile of crap |
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Aug 3 2007, 06:26 PM
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#49
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
It is demonstrably true that for the open-ended consumer who will continue to get augmented indefinitely that having a piece of gear with a higher Essence cost means that it actually has a higher :nuyen: cost as well (since it will need to be taken at a higher grade). But for the one-time consumer - the character who is going to get a specific set of enhancements and then stay that way until he retires or dies - that is not necessarily true.
If you're a player you're going to continue, well, playing for probably an open-ended period of time. Even if the campaign ends on a satisfactory note, there's no guaranty that you won't port the character over to another game later. And thus you match the open-ended consumer very well. That means that non-Essence friendly items are, for you, generally horse shit no matter what they cost in terms of :nuyen: because the real long term costs are actually very high. But if you're playing in a one-shot game, or you're a security guard who has no intention of ever becoming a high end mercenary for hire or getting upgraded to having poison quills or mouth guns - then it doesn't matter. Seriously. If something costs .1 Essence or all your Essence but .1 it really doesn't make a huge difference - you're not intending to use any of that Essence for anything so spending it is "free". So having items that cost less :nuyen: - any amount of less :nuyen: and cost more Essence - any amount more Essence - is actually fine. For somebody. As a player character in an open ended game that somebody is probably not you - but those people do exist both game mechanically and story-wise. -Frank |
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Aug 3 2007, 06:43 PM
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#50
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Well said, Frank.
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 1st March 2026 - 03:37 PM |
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