 Surgery, Why the hate? |
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 Aug 3 2007, 01:08 AM
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#26
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Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
Talia, you're using numbers to obscure and ignore the reality. the reality is, most people have a much harder time figuring out the surgery rules than the combat rules. it's an issue that crops up again and again in a wide array of groups. whether or not you think that's reasonable is irrelevant--the problem exists, and it exists in a wide enough sample to show that the problem is in the rules, not the players.
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Aug 3 2007, 01:58 AM
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#27
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yeah, I have participated in heart surgery in the back of an ambulance on an air strip. And the Man & Machine rules made my head explode.
When I went to make the surgery rules for Augmentation I seriously just made it an extended test and left it to glitches for bad things to happen other than the surgery damage and healing times. I generally expect that surgeons will be professional and make few enough life-threatening errors that they will be allowed to continue working as surgeons. -Frank |
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Aug 3 2007, 02:04 AM
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#28
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No, they are not remotely a parallel. All of the common activities that can be assisted with an Astral Quest (learning a spell, learning a formula, learning a metamagic, initiation ordeal) can be done without an Astral Quest. A Streetsam can't add or upgrade 'ware without surgery. The Astral Quest rules could be changed to say "a character who goes on an Astral Quest dies instantly", and mages would still be able to advance in their core capabilities. A streetsam does not have that luxury. Frank: I think you just summed up one of the fundamental changes in tone that I object to from recent books—you assume surgeons will be competent. Flavour from older books suggested you shouldn't assume surgeons to have had formal medical training. ~J |
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Aug 3 2007, 02:29 AM
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#29
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Surgeons, yes. Illegal street docs who have no less than 15 warrants for practising medicine without a license, maybe (depends on why they don't currently have a license). If your street doc was a true, trained, and certified surgeon, then he should have some skills. If he uses a bootleg skillsoft downloaded from a dark and disturbing corner of of the matrix, .... maybe, maybe this time he'll hit the flaw where some of the original code wasn't properly deleted (in which case, you may be marinated and stuffed as part of a bustergophechiduckneaealcockidgeoverwingailusharkolanbler recipe). So, how well you should live is directly related to how picky you are with your medical contacts. In real life, doctors are less common than full mages in SR, so you may not have as much opportunity to be discriminating as you would prefer, given how some of them even try to stay legal (the shock and horror). |
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Aug 3 2007, 02:33 AM
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#30
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Now there's something you don't hear said everyday to me on Dumpshock. :rotfl:
And I'm asking why that is: given that the surgery rules have considerably less complexity than, for example, the combat rules. It's not an intrinsic result of the surgery rules structure. Kagetenshi: within the broader picture you're right. I was just borrowing the astral quest as one common example Awakened types used to ease their own acquisition of magical power: ie to reduce karma costs. It's not immediately relevant to this thread, but I'd have no problem with building in an equivalent risk to all initiation attempts. Can you see the reaction were I to suggest it? |
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Aug 3 2007, 02:54 AM
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#31
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
like i've said, it's the fact that the surgery rules don't get used much. they're not really more complex than the combat rules, but the combat rules get used every single game. the surgery rules, not so much--which means, given the way most people's memory works, that you have to relearn the rules every time someone gets surgery. if people only used the combat rules once every few games, then you'd get a lot (more) people complaining about how complex they are.
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Aug 3 2007, 02:58 AM
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#32
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The chances of something going horribly wrong in SR4 surgery depend very much on the abilities of the doctor. A Logic 1, Medicine 1 Street Doc installing alpha grade cyberware is probably going to glich. A Logic 1, Medicine 1, Edge 2 Street Doc installing alpha grade 'ware through a rigger-adapted medkit is will unquestionably kill the patient by leaving him pen on the table since he has 0 surgery dice after modifiers and doesn't have enough edge to make finish via longshot tests . |
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Aug 3 2007, 03:06 AM
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#33
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
... you use every one of the combat rules across three (four?) separate books -- not just the basic ruleset in the BBB -- every single game? |
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Aug 3 2007, 03:16 AM
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#34
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I'll put it this way:
One of the first things we did at SotSW was discard the surgery rules. Despite that, after three years of play (and that's six, because two games run under the umbrella of SotSW), no character has implanted 'ware post-chargen. (Granted, a big reason for this is that most of the characters who would get 'ware (non-incompatible, non-Awakened) already have well in excess of five points worth, requiring multi-million-nuyen upgrades to get anything meaningful) We have not used every combat action from every book in that time. I don't think anyone has tried a Kick Attack or a Kip-Up. Nevertheless, we have achieved substantial coverage of combat rules, including vehicle gunnery (both types) and MIJI (or the tiny subset that isn't rendered useless by encryption), most of it frequent. ~J |
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Aug 3 2007, 03:20 AM
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#35
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
no, but i use the basic combat rules--into which all those other rules fit, more or less smoothly--every game. i don't use the basic surgery rules every game, so not only to i have to relearn all the applicable modifiers, i have to relearn all of the steps i have to go through.
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Aug 3 2007, 03:53 AM
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#36
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
It's a matter of running down the list of, what, three tables? four? And they're all in the same place!
FWIW, life took me away from SR for over a year before I managed even to return to these boards. I hadn't touched the surgery section since even before that. It took me five minutes to go through the entire section, before opening this topic. The only relevant points not in that section are covered in the BBB damage/healing section: again, brief and limited. It takes me much, much longer to pull in overbearing, and surprise/ambush, and martial arts, and overdamage, and the relevance of perception and range modifiers within this or that combination of scope/lenses/cybereyes, and armour reduction, and the specific rules involved with specific types of ammo ... They don't all fit neatly into the basic combat structure; and the various tables and in-text rules are all over the place. Since I've returned I've been involved in SR combats, but I haven't yet had a chance to re-read all the combat rules yet. |
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Aug 3 2007, 05:17 AM
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#37
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
no, it's a matter of knowing what tables to check, in what order. and then making sure of what modifiers apply--and maybe making adjustments to the situation to get better modifiers. and then going through all the positive and negative options to fill out your list. and then tallying up all the factors that go into the pricetag for the surgery, and maybe jiggering the mods again because you can't afford some of them. and then figuring out what to roll. and then doing the roll and rp'ing the whole thing (if you choose to).
look, you think it's simple. bully for you. i think the SR3 Matrix rules are simple, but i get shouted down all the time by masses upon masses of people who find them ridiculously complex. at some point, you have to accept that you're are the outlier. |
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Aug 3 2007, 05:53 AM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Maybe it's just me, but it's not that the surgery rules are highly complex, it's that I'm not interested in the surgery rules, and so any amount of complexity above "basic" is unacceptable to me.
For the same reason, I don't want ten pages of rules on how to handle it when you have to solve a math problem, or ten pages of rules on how to handle it when you want to perform in a play, etc, etc. Surgery is important in Shadowrun, but unless I'm playing a surgeon, I just don't need any level of complexity. |
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Aug 3 2007, 06:06 AM
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#39
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Never said I wasn't. That being said, it still doesn't explain why you find the Matrix system more straightforward over the surgery system; and why people generally are more likely to find the combat system straightforward over the surgery system. I repeat: it's not something intrinsic to the rule structure. Nor is it simply familiarity, because the sheer number of rules involved with either combat or Matrix mean that it's very nearly impossible to be using all of them with a frequency equal to how often surgery is needed. Sometimes people object to some part or another of combat or Matrix rules on the basis of over-complexity or over-realism or non-realism, but it's never with that same sheer hate. Maybe I'm wondering why people who do want to keep upgrading their PCs don't want to become comfortable with the surgery rules. After all, if you don't like a concept, rejecting it out of hand is a very easy way not to have to think about why. And in SR, it's been demonstrated that enough hate, whether or not that hate has any objective grounding, will get the rules changed. And then, of course, the arguments change to screaming oneself RAW. |
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Aug 3 2007, 06:20 AM
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#40
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i didn't say that. i said i don't find the Matrix system to be overly complex. for its role, for the frequency it gets used, i find the Matrix rules to be of enjoyable complexity.
yes, it is. it's a combination of both. the rule structure is too complex for the level of familiarity most players have with it. what you're not getting is that most players, when they open up the surgery section have to learn or relearn the basic structure of the surgery rules. when looking up obscure rules in combat or the Matrix, i already know the basic structure of the rules, so it's easy for me to slide the obscure rule into my understanding. as for why i don't want to become familiar with the surgery rules? i'm not here to play surgeryrun. i don't want to have expend significant amounts of OOC and IC resources on every minor upgrade. it screws with my suspension of disblief--if surgery is this hard, why is cyberware so popular? if a good street doc under normal conditions has something like a 1 in 3 chance of scarring you for life, why aren't there more horribly scarred runners around? |
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Aug 3 2007, 06:47 AM
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#41
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Ah, the objectivity illusion.
That almost defines a circular argument: too complex for the amount of familiarity players have, yet players don't become more familiar with it because of the amount of complexity. Or, alternately: if something is not already known, why try to become familiar with it?
You're also not here to play lifestylerun: yet I've heard no particular Dumpshock-wide hate for the optional lifestyle rules. (About the same amount of detail in those rules btw.) If body modification is a relevant factor for most SR PCs, then so is how the PC gets that modification. Just pay for it and forget it? Availability rules in themselves suggest it's not supposed to be that simple, and then we have the whole "third party" rules whenever someone tries to obtain or learn something through the FoF. Although I'm guessing your style of play probably glosses over most of those also?
Ask exactly the same question about cosmetic surgery today ... and then search out some of the cases where things went horribly wrong: by professional surgeons, in licenced hospitals.
A street doc's reputation depends on word of mouth. Thus the reputable street doc has incentive to throw in their own Karma pool to avoid a catastrophic result. And the less reputable street doc? Well, you get what you pay for. @ Vaevictis: I think we've discussed elsewhere the increasing reduction of Shadowrun to pressing the I WIN button equations. Removing the surgery rules -- and thus any possible complications to the equation -- is another expression of that same syndrome. |
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Aug 3 2007, 06:48 AM
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#42
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I'm just curious, here, but how often does that happen, really? You've brought it up a couple times now, and you act like it happens all the time; the devs read an angry thread on Dumpshock, and according to you all sorts of rules change as a result. Can you point to any instances of this happening? Particularly with any sort of regularity? |
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Aug 3 2007, 06:58 AM
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#43
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Possibly because I see variations of it in the way people behave every day: and increasingly I'm seeing it as the most common behavioural reaction to any kind of having been stymied. I did point to one example directly in that blog entry you found irrelevant, but it's really not difficult to find others around you. Just watch your average office politics in action.
As to Dumpshock: with v.4, we have seen rules changes happen, in the specific directions I have already indicated in this thread. The regularity is only insofar as it happened with the new edition. Who knows yet what direction v.5 will take? |
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Aug 3 2007, 07:01 AM
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#44
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
What? I thought that most of the old timers are totally not happy about the direction that SR4 took, and what people spend the most time complaining about is firearms realism, which we didn't really see more of in SR4. |
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Aug 3 2007, 07:06 AM
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#45
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Some oldtimers, yes. You'll have noticed the post-SR4 schism, which wouldn't have happened had all or even most oldtimers agreed.
But what demographic do game developers have to keep tapping (and thus listen to) to stay profitable? |
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Aug 3 2007, 07:10 AM
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#46
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
So you're telling me that in fact most of the oldtimers didn't like firearms realism and that's why we didn't get any but at the same time game designers ignore oldtimers and cater to new audiences which also dislike firearms realism? |
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Aug 3 2007, 07:16 AM
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#47
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Fair enough point.
I'm suggesting that only those oldtimer points -- and remember, most of us aren't old, after all -- which would also appeal to a younger, videogame-raised generation were accepted. (Consider the new use of Edge v. the old combat pool in this context.) As to the rest: remember the way of Kagetenshi's attempted revisions? |
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Aug 3 2007, 07:22 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
What a load of horseshit. It's not the risk I have a problem with, it's having 10 pages of rules that add nothing to the game except a bunch of busy work. EDIT: Which is to say, I don't have a problem with there being surgery rules, or there being risk associated with them, I just don't think that having 10 pages of rules for it is beneficial or enjoyable in a game like Shadowrun. |
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Aug 3 2007, 07:27 AM
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#49
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it's not circular, it's self-reinforcing. if you want to bash players for being too lazy to learn unfamiliar rules that are going to see rare usage, be my guest. it won't stop them from being too lazy to bother learning the rules, which means the rules are too complex to be used in most games. if you seriously think the lifestyle rules are anything remotely similar in level of complexity to the surgery rules, then you are either seriously misunderstanding the surgery rules or seriously misunderstanding the lifestyle rules. with the lifestyle rules, you select options, add up their value, and check that value against a single chart. the surgery rules... i've already gone over what the surgery rules entail. and, looking back, i didn't even mention the part about getting a medical profile and a surgery plan created.
professional surgeons in licensed hospitals do not, statistically, have a one in three chance of screwing up horribly. hell, the screwups at Walter Reed that were recently in the news didn't have a ratio that bad. i mean, you are seriously suggesting that a professional doctor with a good, clean working area, the correct tools, and full knowledge of his patient's medical profile should have to pull a miracle out of his ass every third time he installs a datajack.
so, what, everybody who played SR1-2 were just unrepentant munchkins? |
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Aug 3 2007, 07:39 AM
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#50
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
*laugh*
Vaevictis, I wouldn't expect you to feel any other way. For mfb's reference: if you wish to consider that bashing, then it's bashing. Do note though that I never called or considered it that. The distinction between circular and self-reinforcing lies only in whether or not you want to find a reason for having entered the circle in the first place. Btw I'd summarised the lifestyle rules separately for my own use -- came out to eight pages of densely worded charts at 6 pt font. As to the real chance of major screwup, check those rules again, using the modifiers you just cited for a basic surgery such as only a datajack. One of the points of those rules is that the more modifications you have, the harder future surgery gets. Run-of-the-mill datajacks -- only -- don't have anywhere near that high a risk within the conditions you describe. |
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