 4th Ed Initiative, What's your take? |
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 Aug 3 2007, 07:34 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 350 Joined: 20-August 06 Member No.: 9,176  |
My credentials:
-I've been playing 4th edition since it came out (bought the book when it was released at Gencon 2 years ago) -I have played 3rd edition since basically it was released. -I've been the main GM for both versions for my group the entire time I have played SR. -I have played in the GenCon Tourneys since pretty much I started playing. Last year I managed to win (with the rest of my team) the the tournament after years of struggling. A highpoint of my life. :P Okay, that out of the way, I want to say I love Shadowrun. Both 3rd and 4th editions. I think each have certain things going for them, but over all, I do like the more streamlined 4th edition a little more for ease of play. I am going to be doing some "comparing" of games here and I hope that is okay. I am not wanting or trying to start an edition vs edition argument. But I do need to do the comparisons to explain my problem. There's one glaring change that was made to the game that I jsut don't quite understand. It seems broken or unbalanced. That is the "new" initiative. Previously, no matter how much "initiative" a player had, there was always a chance that they would be slow... or at least slower. Several Wired 3 characters had guaranteed 2nd passes (barring injury) in my gaming group, but they still might be slower sometimes than many Wired 1 characters due to the roll of the dice. On average they would be going "first" but not always. And they never knew for sure how many passes they were gonna get (often 2, sometimes 3) until those dice were rolled. It was possible to build a no wired character and actually get a second pass on a really good roll. The players were always excited when this happened. With 4th Edition, passes are automatic for the most part. No matter how lousy you roll Init, you are gonna have that many passes. It has made the value of Init passes jsut sky rocket with the unwired (or unmagicked) characters jsut sucking hind tit every single turn. I know it's a change in the game. Maybe the designers actually intended to make assorted improved reflex type stuff that much more potent, but to me it has lost some of the ... zing. It's too predictable. I personally really liked the old variance and it's the only major part of 4th Edition that jsut leaves me a little cold every time I run it. So chime in. Give me your opinions here. Does anyone else feel this way? Does anyone else use any house rules to make it feel more like 3rd Ed. in this aspect? I don't know that I even would want to play a non-official rules game, but I would like to hear others thoughts. If this has been brought up before, I apologize, but I have never seen anyone discuss Initiative in this aspect on the boards here. Thanks! Vlad |
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Aug 3 2007, 07:43 PM
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#2
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
I tend to agree. One thing that I've seen mix it up, but that I also think is often forgotten about, is spending a point of edge to gain an initiative pass or to go first. I've tossed that one out a few times as a GM and my players don't seem to do preferring, I suppose, to save Edge for re-rolls and exploding sixes.
I don't like that the initiative system, as it is in 4th, often ends up having the same order, too. Maybe character A and B swap places in the order once in a while, but in general, my players seem to get very used to the fact that they're going to be acting in the same pattern turn after turn. That being said, I do like the fact that we don't need the subtract ten and go again rule anymore. I guess it did have allow a variable number of initiative passes for a character, and getting that all important 21 on your roll was always a welcome sight, but it was one of the more difficult things to explain to new players, in my experience. Of course rolling ones initiative and adding the resulting hits onto ones initiative is also rather confusing for people. |
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Aug 3 2007, 07:48 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 123 Joined: 7-October 05 From: Glow City Safehouse Member No.: 7,821 |
The thing that I found, in my game, that balances it out is the rule that the use of edge can give extra initiative passes. (pg. 67) and that edge can be used on initiative tests.
However, I can still see the issue. Especially in long, drawn out fights or in a day with multiple fights. One thing suggested by a player was the idea that 'edge passes' last for the fight rather than just one pass, or that you can pay two edge to have it do so. |
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Aug 3 2007, 07:56 PM
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#4
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
That's not half bad. |
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Aug 3 2007, 08:01 PM
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#5
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I like the former better than the latter. There is no precedent for using two edge at once. In fact it's explicitly forbidden in all other cases. Making it last through the fight, though, I like that a lot. |
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Aug 3 2007, 08:05 PM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I like it. The only thing I'm not sure about with SR4 initiative is that you roll reaction and then add successes to your reaction. It seems too much like doubling up on an already useful stat. but i can see the value in making it less likely to have lots of people operating on the same passes, so I'm fine with it.
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Aug 3 2007, 08:16 PM
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#7
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here. First of all, don't don't roll reaction exactly, you roll initiative, which is the sum of reaction and intuition, but I'm pretty darn sure you already knew that and that this is sort of a vagueness/typo. :-P And rolling a stat and adding hits to the stat isn't really doubling up on the stat. It's still using the stat for one thing, either way. Adding the hits to the base only serves to smear the results out over a wider range and reduce ties. Or are you objecting to using reaction for initiative, since reaction is already an otherwise useful stat? Well, if you want to de-emphasize reaction, initiative is probably the last place to do it. So what are you getting at? Is it the "doubling up" or the "already useful"? |
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Aug 3 2007, 08:18 PM
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#8
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
The thing is, Initiative Passes are really nice but not the end-all be-all of combat as they only come up at the end of a Combat Turn. Getting that first move in -- a function of Initiative, not IPs -- can often be instrumental in determining the outcome of a combat scenario. I mean, all it takes is one decent hit and now you're suffering a modifier to everything you do (if you're not completely incapacitated to begin with).
Sure, Initiative only comes into play at the very beginning of the Combat Turn, but extra Iniatiative Passes only come in at the end. Both have their value, and it comes down to which is more important to you: Getting in the first move or getting the last? That said, the only thing the game is really missing right now is a "cheap" form of augmented reflexes, with or without negative side effects. In older editions, a street ganger could believably get ahold of a Boosted Reflexes treatment, for example. This edition, everything costs a fortune... so even a Reflexes 1 effect is a Big Deal in prolonged combat. Which is a good thing in some respects, not so good in others. Tough call as to which I personally prefer. All in all I greatly prefer the new system in total. It's a lot more streamlined and less confusing to learn. It also relies less on random luck and is thus more consistant, which is a good thing for knowing exactly what your character is truly capable of. |
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Aug 3 2007, 08:20 PM
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#9
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I also prefer the SRIII initiative method for many of the same reasons in the OP. I seem to have very little difficulty with the old style of initiative countdown.
...it's so easy a child can do it. --Tom Lerher New Math |
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Aug 3 2007, 08:20 PM
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#10
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
edit: Reply to Doc Funk
Cheap combat drugs give an extra IP. I figure security guards use those plenty. And wired reflexes 1 is roughly as cheap as boosted reflexes 1 ever was, I think, so it's a lot more believable for gangers to get them. (I don't really remember the numbers) |
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Aug 3 2007, 08:21 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Oh, those gangers have access to booster drugs, which give them the excess initiative. It's cheap and available, it's just not something its wise to mess with.
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Aug 3 2007, 08:23 PM
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#12
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
All good points Doc. I've pointed players looking for a cheap initiative boost at the drugs in SR4. Cram seems to be a local favorite in my games.
Edit: curses, beaten again :dead: |
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Aug 3 2007, 08:26 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
You just need more IP.
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Aug 3 2007, 08:27 PM
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#14
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Blah. I keep skipping right over all the drug references in the game. I really need to stop doing that and read up on them. Thanks for letting me know, though; I prefer that type of thing for most of my characters anyway. (I like street level ones better than the former NSA/Black Ops/Superman Project/Presidential Assassin/etc. ultra professionals.)
Sure, with a straight conversion of prices. But if Boosted Reflexes were ported over, they'd probably only be a couple thousand nuyen rather than measured in the 10's. |
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Aug 3 2007, 08:30 PM
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#15
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Has anyone seen boosted reflexes ported to sr4? I don't have sr3 PDFs on my laptop anymore or I'd take a peak at them again.
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Aug 3 2007, 08:34 PM
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#16
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Don't remember the stats off the top of my head, but whenever an old initiative gave +X+Yd6 that pretty much translates to +X to Reaction and +Y initiative passes. I think boosted level 3 topped out at something like +2+2d6 or something? Make it cheap as dirt and non-upgradeable. Or maybe even make it upgradeable, but not removable (short of expensive therapy detailed in Aug) if you want to give it a touch of advancement with the times. Great for the gangers. |
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Aug 3 2007, 09:10 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 350 Joined: 20-August 06 Member No.: 9,176 |
I jsut preferred the ...more randomness of the old initiative. And the fact that while it was more "likely" that you would get more passes, it really wasn't written in stone how many you had. Or how many that little shrimp you were planning on beating up had. You still always knew 9 times out of ten who was the bad ass. But there was always that "occasion." Also, with the new initiative, not only is the character with a high initiative almost always gonna get the first lick in, once he does, he's almost assuredly gonna get it in again and again. I jsut guess that I liked the odds being on the side of the high Init guy, but the fact that sometimes the slower guy gets lucky...sometimes he gets that extra punch in there (or even occasionally beats to the punch), surprising the bejesus out of the "big, bad, tough runner that's jacked to high heaven. " It kept the runners on their toes. As it is now, it's almost a given that not only is "jacked up guy" gonna hit you first, he's gonna hit you again (and again) without ever worrying that jsut maybe the little sec guard might do something back after you throw that second punch. *shrugs* And like the Kyoto Kid said, I don't think it was any harder to roll 1-3 dice, add it to X and subtract 10 every pass than it is to roll X dice and ad it to X to figure out when you are gonna go. It's not like it speeds anything up. And, to toss my two cents in on using Edge: I agree it's a nice feature but really, most of the time players (and NPC's) are gonna want to reserve that edge roll for dire straights type things. It's a way to occasionally boost your Init, but really not a fix at all for the issue I am describing. The rest of the game, I love. I love how it plays faster and more streamlined. I jsut don't see how this was faster or more streamlined and it lost some of the ...danger. Vlad |
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Aug 3 2007, 09:45 PM
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#18
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Target Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 25-March 07 Member No.: 11,306 |
I like the new initiative system - its a lot easier for new players - although it loses some of its variable fun. I also like that three initiative passes is out of reach for most characters - it gives them something to work for. I don't like how it is the easiest for the Mage to get that third pass.
Edge is already super powerful. Having an extra pass from edge last the entire combat would take it over the top. My biggest disappointment is the flavor text of Wired Reflexes. They took the wires out of wired reflexes and made them some weird bio/cyber hybrid. I would love to see Boosted come back. Does anyone know if it appears in Augmentation? I don't have my copy yet. I'm waiting on the print version. |
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Aug 3 2007, 09:53 PM
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#19
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I actually prefer Initiative as being your raw number of hits rather then your hits plus your Initiative dicepool. It gives out more random initit values and makes characters occassionally lose actions due to severe injuries (something which never happens in the basic rules). It also makes it easier to explain initiative to people as it puts it back into the normal mechanics more firmly.
It's a reasonably minor optional rule and seems to cover most of your complaints. -Frank |
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Aug 3 2007, 09:55 PM
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#20
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
@ Dizzman
Nope, no boosted reflexes in Augmentation. If no one else ports them before me, I'll take a stab at it tonight or tomorrow. I just don't have any of my sr3 books with my anymore since I don't carry the PDFs on my laptop any longer. |
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Aug 3 2007, 10:16 PM
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#21
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Boosted Reflexes was a one-time treatment that increased reflexes but was irreplaceable and had other problems.
Game Mechanically it would look something like this: Boosted Reflexes Essence, Cost, Effect
And I'm not going to pretend that the intermediate level of Boosted Reflexes existed. -Frank |
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Aug 3 2007, 10:23 PM
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#22
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
... Those prices are retarded, man. :)
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Aug 3 2007, 10:35 PM
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#23
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
the third edition stats:
BR 1: +1d6 initiative, .5 essence, 15k credits BR 2: +1d6 initiative, +1 reaction (reaction was something completely different, but whatever) 1.25 essence, 40k credits BR 3: +2d6 initiative, +2 reaction, 2.8 essence, 90k credits i would agree with frank's conversion, except for the price. SR4 appears to have cut the WR bonus to reaction in half, which leads me to agree with the numbers. if i *was* going to re-introduce BR 2, i'd probably give it a +1 to initiative only, not to reaction. availability was also extremely low. the conversion of price and availability would be (imo) BR 1: 3-4,000 nuyen BR 2: 5-6,000 nuyen BR 3: 15-20,000 nuyen (maybe a little higher, but not much) availability would probably be rating x 4, imo... you should be able to get rating 3 at chargen, because it actually isn't as good as WR 2. i might consider reducing the essence cost a bit, but not much... and of course, it just plain can't be removed. ever. this isn't a matter of "you can't get the essence back", the implant simply can't be removed. it also prevents you from getting wired reflexes in previous editions, as well as the VCR (now the control rig). i would probably let you put in wired reflexes or synaptic (they wouldn't stack, of course) but you still could never remove the 'ware, and the essence is permanently gone because of that... you can't even get an essence hole. |
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Aug 3 2007, 10:40 PM
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#24
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The originals were pretty retarded as well. The original costs were for three levels: Essence: .5 - 1.25 - 2.8 Nuyen: 15k - 40k - 90k The benefits were (I'm not making this up):
And of course the ssecond level was made of choclate covered ass and noone cared about it. --- So what if we were to update it into 4th edition? Well, the first level is competitive with Synaptic Booster 1, and the second level is an affordable 2nd tier Reflex increase. But like the original, it's always a bit shy in the performance department and ultimately not something you want if you forsee ever being able to afford Synaptic Boosters. --- But yeah, it didn't make the cut in Augmentation because it was totally jacked up and always has been. -Frank |
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Aug 3 2007, 10:47 PM
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#25
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Eh? I'm well familiar with Boosted Reflexes. It was basically the "poor man's Wired Reflexes," with crappy stats, a huge downside, and relatively low impact on your system for a bargain price. A chemical treatment that predated Wired Reflexes, really.
The stats you gave were fine. It's the prices that are absolutely retarded, both in conversion and purpose. I mean, even Wired Reflexes 2 are only 32,000-nuyen yet you gave Boosted 1 a 50,000-nuyen pricetag?! C'mon... |
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