 Mr. Magoo Challenge, Taking down the elderly, SR4 style |
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 Aug 5 2007, 02:18 PM
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#76
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Hoppelhäschen 5000  Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951  |
Actually, you don't have to worry about collecting your pay-check because sooner than leater, Bloodzilla will eat the world. But that's just collateral damage.
Afterwards, it will bind the sorry souls of the team to silly Silver Surfer live-size replicas and send them out through space to search for new worlds to eat. |
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Aug 5 2007, 02:34 PM
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#77
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Mystery Archaeologist Group: Members Posts: 2,906 Joined: 19-September 05 From: The apple tree Member No.: 7,760 |
Buster you seem to be preventing many of these methods with GM fiat. You have given us no info on the grounds and the security they have, beyond "It's a bunker."
Take Bloodzilla, he flattens Magoo's house with his first use of Quake, followed three seconds later by another use. His range is LOS, so I doubt response will be that quick or accurate. For a start they need to pick up the tremor, then realise it's unnatural... |
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Aug 5 2007, 02:40 PM
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#78
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
Bloodzilla never gets the unique quake power. It's written that invoking blood spirits never grants unique powers to the transformed bound spirit. However, as long the Energy Drain power presented in Street Magic for spirits isn't corrected and given a limit like the Essence Drain power in the basic rulebook, the blood spirit may very well have uber-force rating.
That's something that absolutely has to be addressed in the coming Errata of Street Magic. |
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Aug 5 2007, 02:45 PM
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#79
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Of course you turn him into Great Form first, then turn him into Blood Spirit. |
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Aug 5 2007, 03:15 PM
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#80
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
No, I said Bloodzilla might be able to pound through the defenses of the bunker before the army arrives and attacks him, etc. etc. (read my post). But I was pointing out the fact that it wouldn't matter because you'd have the Feds in an anti-terrorist fever running right to you door because of the astral trail. I don't care if you come up with plausible WMDs, I just thought you just might want to survive this adventure... |
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Aug 5 2007, 03:29 PM
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#81
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Ah, true I forgot about that. Blood spirits can't get additional invocation powers like Quake, their blood invocation powers supercede all other invocations powers. The National Guard disappears in a puff of logic (as does all earthquake damage). The Essence Drain power is limited by 2 * original Essence, so Bloodzilla would be very difficult to create, but it might be possible. Just to run some math real quick: If you had say Magic 10, you could bind a Force 20 spirit (I'd like to see the math on that), Bloodzilla could Essence Drain himself up to Force 40 (!!!). |
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Aug 5 2007, 03:58 PM
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#82
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Invoke a Force 1 Guardian Spirit and a Force 1 Earth Spirit is addition to Bloodzilla. Have the Guardian Spirit Endow the Earth Spirit with Endowment and the Earth Spirit, in turn, Endow Bloodzilla with Quake.
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Aug 5 2007, 04:48 PM
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#83
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
It's actually... worse than that. When Bloodzilla drains those 20 Essence points he also increases his Force to 40, which increases his maximum Essence Drain to 80. And so on and so forth without respite. Literally without respite, because they also are immune to the Evanescence that they supposedly have (since they can just materialize and not lose any Force). At some point Blood Spirits will be errataed to, for example, not do that. But the Street Magic errata is not actually published as far as I know. Until then, the rules as written do in fact contain an infinite power loop based on feeding children to blood spirits. -- But if you just assumed that Blood Spirits had to use normal Essence Drain and Essence Loss (which isn't broken at all), I would totally understand. -Frank |
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Aug 5 2007, 06:24 PM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
Couldn't bloodzilla just force his way through the wards and then materialize and use his engulf power to drown Mr. Magoo in blood? A tipple digit force spirit would have very little trouble forcing his way through any ward or barrier.
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Aug 5 2007, 07:26 PM
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#85
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
The rules say that blood spirits have the Essence Drain power, not "Essence Drain that doesn't have a limit of 2 * Essence" power. Therefore, there is no way to infinite loop blood spirits and no way to get triple digit force spirits.
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Aug 5 2007, 07:28 PM
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#86
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Not exactly. They add the drained Essence to Force instead of Essence. That is the problem.
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Aug 5 2007, 07:29 PM
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#87
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
But doesn't essence = force?
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Aug 5 2007, 07:35 PM
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#88
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
No... it's Force -> Essence, not Force <- Essence, nor Force <-> Essence.
Thus the rise of Bloodzilla. |
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Aug 5 2007, 07:52 PM
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#89
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
I'm curious... what "creative" use of the rules am I doing? |
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Aug 5 2007, 07:57 PM
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#90
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Exactly. Therefore as the spirit's force increases, its essence increases, therefore the cap is still the same: 2*force = 2*essence. |
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Aug 5 2007, 08:23 PM
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#91
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 27-June 06 Member No.: 8,791 |
Now, bearing in mind that I'm not 100% on actually rolling things out with magic and whatnot, this seems like a potential strategy to kill old man Magoo. But first, a question!
How is Magoo signaling his hitsquad? You said there isn't an apparent Matrix connection, which means a hardline we don't know about (but could find), or that the wireless is off until needed. If there is neither then how do they come running when he's in trouble? Team would be a Technomancer Rigger and five Mages. TM would look for a landline, I will assume that there isn't one. If there is, find a point where it can be cut before it gets to another node, and plant a bomb. If it's guarded, then things get more complicated, and I can get into that later. If it's nothing, or simply turned off Wireless then... The TM buys (probably already has) numerous drones equipped with powerful jamming systems. These will run off of built-in Pilot programs, since they have a simple tast, surround the mansion area a a good distance and initiate a blanket of wireless jamming as the attack starts. Could be dozens of these if necessary, staying on the gruond until the last moment. Them the TM (borrowing from Nightmare) hijacks a plane of reasonable size with a Sprite. Then several large-ish drones. The first plane comes in low and fast, picks up an escort of spirits controlled by a mage in position near the mansion, and simply shears through the mansion near the second or third floor. As this all happens, the jamming blanket goes off. The next phase is a series of drones packed to the brim with enough of whatever explosive will dig the biggest hole in the ground, and they come down, full throttle, from directly overhead, again controlled by a sprite, and defended by a series of spirits. Some of the spirits will stay on the ground and fight, others will go back to escort the drones. Several drones would be needed to crater down to the bunker surface. Then another couple drop in with thermite. If at any point a barrier is found, the mages, onboard a craft rigged by the TM, would approach close enough to counterspell, with spirit assistance if needed. Then again, I'm not really certain how fast we could get a divebombing, afterburning drone to go... might be over awfully fast. The thermite breaches the bunker I'd imagine, at which point naplam is dropped in on the next couple planes. Or we get another sprite to fly a missile into the hole, filled with any number of nasty chemical/biological/nanite weapons. And Napalm. The spirits would assist. With the speed of drones, the series of crashes/bombing could be over in less than a minute, just long enough for the blast of the last one to clear, and another dives into the smoke cloud. Planes would be (I'd imagine) harder for spirits to catch than a truck, and with mages around to put magical/physical barriers up and super-powered Sprites doing crazy piloting tricks, they survive all the way to the ground. Napalm, various nerve chemicals, and cutter-style nanites should pretty much kill everything inside, assuming it isn't absolutely massive. More drone-missiles flown into the breach to ensure that bulkhead systems fail might be needed. Now, as for whether or not this is reasonable, I don't know. All this stuff could conceivably have been owned by a crazy TM rigger/mage assault team prior to that day. Explosives seem relatively easy to get in small quantities, and over time, you get large quantities. With computer-level timing and precision provided by the Sprites and TM, the entire thing could be preprogrammed, so no mid-battle comm is needed, allowing the blanket of jamming to stop anything from getting out, and allowing it to proceed with inhuman timing. Magical protection on the drones slows spirits and enemy mages long enough to impact, and if the mages have a series of spirits bound to engage the enemy spirits and cause confusion on the mansion grounds, it might even trick defenders into initially believing that the first plane attack was just a diversion for a ground assault. It's even possible the cratering drones would simply collapse the bunker, killing Magoo. |
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Aug 5 2007, 08:36 PM
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#92
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
...which it can never ever reach. When your Force is 2, your cap is 4 so you can drain an Essence point and gain a Force point. When your Force is 4, your cap is 8 so you can still gain a Force point by sucking an Essence point. In fact, you can always drain another Essence point because each and every Essence point you drain grants you +2 to your maximum number of drained Essence points in addition to everything else it does. It's a real and acknowledged problem with the way Street Magic is written. Also, the limitation of Evanescence does not apply to Blood Spirits at all because Force is only lost by spirits who stay in Astral Form for a prolonged period of time and Blood Spirits can materialize a body at any point as a Complex action at which point they aren't in pure Astral form any more. That's also a real and acknowledged problem. There is no RAW escape from Bloodzilla. Bloodzilla is a genuine oversight that slipped through editting. When an official Street Magic errata happens, Bloodzilla will be fixed. For now, I strongly suggest that you just pretend it doesn't say that. But don't claim that it actually doesn't say what it says, just acknowledge the brokeness and move on with your life as if it wasn't there. -- So for the purposes of this contest, Blood Spirits just have Essence Drain and Essence Loss like a reasonable critter. But don't try to argue that by RAW they aren't broken - because by RAW they are. -Frank |
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Aug 5 2007, 08:47 PM
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#93
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Well ok, call it a house rule if you want, but a blood spirit's Essence Drain can only get a max of double the spirit's ORIGINAL force, not double it's most recent force.
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Aug 5 2007, 08:48 PM
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#94
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
And its perfectly resonable to gm fiat that old man magoo dies on transit to the mansion. Whats your point? What abuse is there? Mages are limited to CHA bound spirits, so there is a limit in place for the number of spirits that can aid sorcery. |
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Aug 5 2007, 09:01 PM
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#95
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
I've been thinking about Ravor's magic tunnelling idea. Assuming you came up with a way to hide the initial dirt excavated, you'd have to deal with the tunnel collapsing behind you as the area of the spell moves forward. You'd be fine, because you'd be in the safe area of the spell, but you'd leave a trail behind you like Bugs Bunny. I didn't think of sinking Wards in the ground (just around the bunker), so that approach would work up until Mr. Magoo's Detect Life and Detect Magic spells sniffed out the team and sent spell-popping spirits down after them. As far as I know, the detection spells will extend down into the ground (correct me if I'm wrong). If the Shape Earth spell was dispelled/killed by a spirit (or ward), the safe area of the tunnel would collapse on the team.
I think Seraph Kast wins a Kewpie Doll of Doom for combining everyone's good ideas into one nasty multipronged attack. I think one good way to get through the bunker would be with one or more mages and several spirits and one or more hackers/technomancers/agents/sprites all protecting one or more kamikaze drones filled with bunker-busting explosives. The trick would be to get the kamikaze drones to the bunker before Mr. Magoo's spirits and electronic warfare agents can detonate them. I can think of a few more ideas that might work too (and would require less collateral damage), so keep the ideas coming. |
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Aug 5 2007, 09:14 PM
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#96
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you had say Magic 10, cast a Force 20 spell, you are limited to 20 raw hits (not net hits, but raw hits). With a threshold of 16, that means you can only get 4 net hits maximum. Even I lift the Aid Sorcery stacking house rule, even if you had a million dice to throw at the ritual test, you could only get a maximum of 4 net hits on the spellcasting test. Mr. Magoo's spirits' Magical Guard and Edge should be able to easily null those 4 hits. |
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Aug 5 2007, 09:15 PM
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#97
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
For an alternate tactic. Take a mage. Magic 6 and intuition 6. Willpower 4. Initiates 22 times for a cost of 381 karma. (Assuming group and ordeal discounts on all).
Costs are: [ Spoiler ] Gets I think all metamagics, but at least masking and improved masking. Casts shapechange as a rat, or some other similar small animal. (Mage has a body of 3, so he can turn into a body 1 critter.) Sneak in through the house, and kill mr magoo in melee combat (since he gets a bonus of +1 physical stats per hit). Assuming magic spellcasting of 6, thats 12 dice. average 4 hits. So the 1/1/1/1 rat is now 5/5/5/5. Give him unarmed combat skill, and magoo dies. Over and over till he's dead dead. Mage slinks out. Not spotted from magical means due to the masking. And give him a good infiltration skill, and the silence spell too. (And why not, foci to sustain all the spells too). There ya go. |
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Aug 5 2007, 09:18 PM
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#98
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Initiate Grade is limited to Magic x2.
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Aug 5 2007, 09:20 PM
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#99
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Where is this threshold 16 coming from? Its a threshold 16 to create the symbolic link needed to perform the ritual. Its an opposed test for the spell slay (human). By willpower + counterspelling magoo has. Mages get (assuming the teamwork rules apply to ritual magic) 14 dice on their casting + 6 for a bound spirit, +6 for the edge of the leader. 26 dice with exploding 6's average to 8 hits. 4 explode for another hit. 9 hits. Magoo gets 1 willpower plus any counterspelling. At most, thats 14 (for a mage with 7 skill getting teamworked.) So, 15 dice. Average 5 hits. 9 - 5 = 4 net hits. Take 24P magoo. |
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Aug 5 2007, 09:24 PM
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#100
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Ahh, I see. So, he can go up to 12 with his base rating of 6. He can get to magic 9 and grade 18 for a cheap 362 karma.
Costs [ Spoiler ] He still won't get his masking penetrated. |
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