 Bring out yer dead, How much is a dead body worth? |
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 Aug 5 2007, 07:06 PM
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#1
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760  |
One of my characters runs a street clinic. I've set up a simple mechanic so that he makes a certain amount of money based on the value of the used cyber he brings in during a run (so about a quarter of the book price, assuming the ware is in perfect condition). However I've realized he brings in a lot of bodies in very good condition (generally just eviscerated or with a few very well placed shots). So I'm wondering, all told, about how much would a metahuman body be worth? What about a magical metahuman body? How fast do they sell? What else would I need to know before determining a 'fair' street price for him?
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Aug 5 2007, 07:09 PM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,311 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Calgary, Alberta Member No.: 2,062 |
Take a look at Augmentation for prices of organs, and give him a percentage based on what you think is fair market value and what organs are still intact. After that, figure out how much he can charge for ghoul chow (probably not much).
I don't see why Awakened bodies would be worth any more than mundane bodies. They're not Awakened any more. |
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Aug 5 2007, 07:20 PM
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#3
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
From what I recall from today's market, all the part s (including marrow, eyes, etc) can be sold off for over 100 grand. As lnog as all the part s are in good condition. This is what I recall from an article on a mortuary that was actually selling the parts on the black market. Don't know if that would go up or down though in SR era.
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Aug 5 2007, 07:58 PM
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#4
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Take a look at SR3 p128—it has prices for limbs and organs, and if you apply the usual fencing modifier that should work out for you.
~J |
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Aug 5 2007, 10:15 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
Yeah; they're permanently asleep now. |
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Aug 5 2007, 11:02 PM
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#6
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
34 minor organs = $255k
14 major organs = $210k 4 limbs = $100k (going off the list on wiki plus 4 limbs, regularly forgetting to count doubles) Total: $565k (This is final retail price. Since the fellow in question is a street doc with a clinic, so he actually can make full price on it.) So for every person he kills and brings back more or less intact, he can expect about half a million nuyen? |
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Aug 5 2007, 11:28 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 407 Joined: 9-February 05 From: Oklahoma City, OK, USA Member No.: 7,070 |
Sounds like free money to me.
Is he careful to only kill type O donors? What’s the cost of auto-immune response inhibiter drugs? What if someone wants to track down the dearly departed? I wouldn’t give a PC a free ride. |
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Aug 6 2007, 01:49 AM
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#8
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
What's the second hand organ group's name again? I'm thinking Tantamouse, but I know that's not the right spelling at least and I'm not sure which book to check.
But my point is that there's a nice monopoly on 'previously used' 'free range' organs and limbs, and monopolies don't like startups, no matter how small. |
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Aug 6 2007, 03:23 AM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
Tamenous
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Aug 6 2007, 04:02 AM
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#10
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Tamanous.
~J |
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Aug 6 2007, 04:50 AM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
Oopsie.
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Aug 6 2007, 07:23 AM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
Doesn't the price for a new organs include surgery? So much like cyber wear you are going to get a pretty heavily discounted price because you have to undercut a fresh vat grown clone by a significant margin.
Is anyone really going to want body parts? Wouldn't it be cheaper just to clone stuff? |
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Aug 6 2007, 09:34 AM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,286 Joined: 24-May 05 From: A 10x10 room with an orc and a treasure chest Member No.: 7,409 |
The price for surgery used to be added into the cost, but in M&M they added surgery rules (which most don't use) and it set up different prices for surgery. So to answer your question by canon no, in practice yes.
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Aug 6 2007, 11:46 AM
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#14
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Regardless of whether or not this is the case, this is exactly the sort of situation that should be pointed to for an explanation of why this (implicit surgery costs) is a horrible, horrible idea. ~J |
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Aug 6 2007, 02:44 PM
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#15
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
The character in question is a surgeon, so surgery costs would be part of his income.
Immuno-suppressants are free. The rules for the clinic clearly state it includes a device that can make just about any medication he might need. And yes, why would anyone buy body parts when they can get cloned parts? That's the crux of my problem. If he gets a datajack or a pair of cybereyes, he can just about guaranteed to be able to sell. Sure they're used now, but even so, that's a product that'll move. Body someone's leftover left arm? We assume surgery is about half the cost of a given piece of cyber, but is that the case with meat too? How does lack of demand impact these prices? It seems to me that if a runner is holed up in a hospital waiting for an arm, his buddies should have no problem going out, finding someone similar, killing the guy and bringing the body back, thereby saving the runner a good chunk of change, yet there isn't much of anything to separate the value of the limb from the value of the surgery. How about this for a rephrase, if a runner needs a new organ or limb and his team go and bring in a body double to supply said organs or limbs, how much does the doctor charge? |
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Aug 6 2007, 03:36 PM
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#16
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Cost. As you say, the way they express the cost is completely broken. ~J |
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Aug 6 2007, 10:36 PM
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#17
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I would agree that the big question is whether or not something can move. Since SR doesn't really have an economic engine I guess this is handled poorly or not at all.
Basically, just because limbs retail for X it doesn't mean that limbs translate into X. If we bring a body back to the clinic, unless there's a huge line of people with missing organs waiting for a secondhand replacement, I doubt you're going to "use every part of the buffalo". You have to figure that of all the clients coming for new limbs only a certain portion are going to actually buy secondhand and it's unlikely that there will be enough such clients to use up each and every organ in the recovered body. So, the amount of profit someone makes off a body is directly related to the number of secondhand limb patients. The rest of the body must eventually go to waste. We need rules to simulate this! And it must have different ratios of cloned to cyber to secondhand based on neighborhood economics. MORE RULES! BRING ME MORE RULES! |
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Aug 6 2007, 10:51 PM
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#18
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Write them up, and if they're good they're a shoo-in for SR3R.
~J |
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Aug 6 2007, 11:52 PM
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#19
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Gosh, how exciting it would be. But, man, I've been sitting here thinking about it for a few minutes and it's really something I don't think I can do without my Shadowrun sourcebooks, which are back in the US. I'd need to look at specific prices, availability ratings, and the like, so as to try and approximate scarcity, demand, and so on. I may be able to create a physad entirely from memory but it gets a lot harder to remember every table in the deadly damage and healing section. I can think of an overall conceptual framework, though, because it should actually apply to any medical goods and services that a Shadowrunner might want to move which are subject to supply and demand. I'd argue that even if we assume for the sake of argument that the regular fencing loot rules are terrific those rules seem to be designed to reflect luxury items, as the rules specifically mention novahot prototypes, expensive or unique gear, etc. Nobody NEEDS a top of the line assault rifle in the same way that the NEED a replacement limb that is secondhand. One is an enabler to let you do your job better. The other is basic to your quality of life. So, basically, the difference is that medical supplies would be easier to sell than loot in places where there is a need for these medical supplies, but that when the supply exceeds the need they would suddenly be very hard to sell. What the hell are you going to do with a secondhard arm you don't need? It's a bit like the water diamond paradox. So, I would consider the rule for medical supplies and secondhand limbs to work roughly as follows: 1.) Determine neighborhood that supplies are being sold in. That is to say, determine average level of wealth, level of demand (upscale neighborhood would have very low demand for replacement limbs or even top of the line cyberarms, barrens probably pretty high for all replacements), and number of clients (as a function of percentage of population involved in violent occupations). This represents the market for replacement limbs or other emergency medical supplies. 2.) Determine % of the market that the street doc can reach given visibility of clinic, reputation, etc. Determine how frequently these members of the market get injured and need a replacement; probably lower if the market is high end shadowrunners and higher for gangbangers. This determines how many clients from the market the doc will see per month or whatever. This will in turn determine either how many limbs the PC doc can sell, or else how many limbs the PC salesman can expect to sell to a local doc. 3.) Determine final factors. If the PC is selling limbs the doc is going to want to buy them for no more than 1/4 of his retail cost, I'd guess, and at most he might buy 10% more limbs than he needs if he wants to be sure that he won't run out. If the PC is the doc you'd need to roll some dice to allow for random fluctuations in demand; if a few more or a few less clients come in to buy limbs than expected. You'd also add a certain level of expenses to simulate the cost of preserving the limbs using refrigeration or whatever on a by-quantity basis, and finally you'd have there be a certain skill-based probability of reputation going up or down based on either an accident-free month, or the number of botched surgeries. Don't forget that in the above example "limb" could mean a secondhand limb, or salavaged cyber...what the client is buying depends on his socioeconomic status. |
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Aug 7 2007, 03:53 AM
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#20
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
Doesn;t one of the Docwagon subscriptions include a completely cloned body of you as a toss in with a years subscription?
In that case, aren't second hand body parts going to be worth like half that plus implantation? I'm assuming there is some economy of scale in going the whole hog, but also cloned parts are going to be alot more attractive than someone elses second hand bits. |
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Aug 7 2007, 03:58 AM
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#21
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
IIRC, it does. I can't find the reference, though, and it's likely to be one of the upper (and thus very expensive) levels.
~J |
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Aug 7 2007, 04:20 AM
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#22
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Platinum and above, IIRC. |
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Aug 7 2007, 06:34 AM
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#23
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Right. Even in the basic rules for deadly damage you have the choice of either a cloned limb (if you prepared in advance) or a secondhand one. The secondhand one was basically the worst thing you could get and the only reason to do it was if you didn't have enough money for something better. That's where the area market aspect of a rule would come into play. If you were in a poor area there'd be more demand for secondhand limbs whereas in a wealthier area the demand for cloned parts or cyber would be higher and secondhand would be lower. |
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Aug 7 2007, 08:01 AM
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#24
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
As a rule of thumb: No mater what rules you do - the payment for dragging a body to a street doc should never be more than the payment for a run. Otherwise, shadowrunning does not make economical sense anymore (why risk your life for 5K if you can bag some nobody and sell the parts for 50K?).
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Aug 7 2007, 11:01 AM
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#25
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Given that the payment for a body is based on preexisting prices, that means you're going to need to adjust the price for the run, not artificially constrain the price for the body.
~J |
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