 Symbolic Links: Any way to defend yourself?, Are they crazy or merely insane? |
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 Aug 6 2007, 12:44 AM
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#26
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Prime Runner  Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665  |
No. You can only follow astral links from point A to point B. You can't pick them up in the middle, they probably don't even have a middle. -Frank |
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Aug 6 2007, 12:45 AM
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#27
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I find this whole thing counter-intuitive. In my opinion, a Ward should act, you know, like a Ward. It should somehow magically protect you from Arcane Bad Things™ of all varieties.
If this is indeed the case, then I believe that this should be made clear in the rules. If it is not the case, then there needs to be clearly defined guidelines as to when a Ward is not a Ward. |
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Aug 6 2007, 12:54 AM
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#28
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Wards don't protect you from arcane bad things if:
-Frank |
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Aug 6 2007, 01:00 AM
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#29
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
I had a long and intricate post, but what it boils down to is this: I agree with Fortune.
Game balance, in-world logic and history, and any sense of ever needing hit men in the world who AREN'T ritual magicians indicate that wards should affect ritual casting. And, as a hasty edit, the wording for wards interacting with spells is as follows: "In some cases, a spell, focus, spirit, or even a character may unintentionally be forces into a situation where either they or the barrier must give." It doesn't mention LOS at all. |
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Aug 6 2007, 01:07 AM
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#30
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i don't like the idea that wards don't protect you from ritual casting, but Frank has a point: if the spell has to pass through a ward, why doesn't it have to pass through all the structures between the caster and the target? hell, if the target is a significant enough distance away, why doesn't the curvature of the earth come into play?
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Aug 6 2007, 01:16 AM
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#31
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
My explanation for it working is this:
If I target Joe's big toe with my manabolt. Joe takes damage. Not just his big toe. Why? Because Joe's big toe is linked to joe (physically and magically). If I cut off some of joe's hair (material link) and manabolt it ritually, it affects joe. Why? Because its linked to joe (magically). If I take Joe's lucky boxer shorts, and manabolt them ritually via metamagic (symbolic) Joe takes damage. Because they are linked to joe (meta-magically). If I make a statue of joe (hard enough as it is), and manabolt that, joe takes damage. Because its linked to joe (meta-magically). |
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Aug 6 2007, 01:18 AM
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#32
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
The question assumes direct spells travel. They don't. They simply erupt at the target without an intervening travel time. It's the link between caster and target that is impeded by the ward. It's unfortunate that the wording of wards implies direct spells 'travel', because they don't and never have. As the FAQ states:
Do spells cast in the astral have an astral form? What about spells cast in the physical plane? "Spells never have an astral form. They have auras, as all living and magical things do, but spells never have an actual astral form. That's why you can't attack a spell in astral combat, for example (as you could in SR2)." Consequently, the spell's form isn't what the ward blocks - it has no form - and it's their echoes are what you're seeing. Spells don't move. They simply are. That's why you see auras of spellcasting where the caster of a mana bolt was and an aura on the target's body - not in a path between the two. |
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Aug 6 2007, 01:20 AM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
This is the sort of thing I'm talking about, it has no support and is such a stretch that you actually have to invent shit to make the theory work. |
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Aug 6 2007, 02:01 AM
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#34
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Tell me about. You'd totally need magic or something to make that work. |
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Aug 6 2007, 02:05 AM
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#35
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
This is the best explanation I've heard. As far as I can see, it answers all the incongruities. |
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Aug 6 2007, 02:16 AM
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#36
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
except, it doesnt answer why wards work at all then. The ward is invisible, so it doesnt block magical LoS, the spell doesnt flow through the ward (as it just appears) so it doesnt act like a 4x4 driving through mud. so exactly what does the ward do again? |
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Aug 6 2007, 02:21 AM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
It's the link between caster and target that is impeded by the ward. Therefore it affects the ritual spell too. It also means it doesnt block a spirit's metaplanar shortcut trick.
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Aug 6 2007, 02:37 AM
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#38
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
The whole point of ritual magic and a symbolic link is that it bypasses the normal LOS link you're referring to.
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Aug 6 2007, 03:29 AM
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#39
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
And it still would. It just wouldn't automatically bypass a Ward. |
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Aug 6 2007, 03:36 AM
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#40
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Another note, is that it seems that ritual magic might be exempted from the errata that teamwork tests can only add dice equal to the skill of the lead character. This means ritual magic can get much more dice, and easily beat most wards/lodges/barriers hands down anyway. (See the dragon thread).
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Aug 6 2007, 03:43 AM
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#41
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Actually, Wards are not invisible. Astrally speaking they are opaque. This blocks Line of Sight outright. On the physical plane they are invisible, but act as solid barriers to spells (p. 185). That's actually a game term, actual barriers also act as barriers to spells (p. 157). So game mechanically, a ward on the physical plane is just like a plasticrete wall. And if a plasticrete wall wouldn't stop your spell (because, for example, you are Ignoring LOS!... ahem) then neither would a ward. -Frank |
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Aug 6 2007, 03:55 AM
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#42
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
I agree with Frank on this one. Otherwise ritual magic is worthless, as anyone can contract a few dozen wards/barriers and be invulnerable to all rituals.
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Aug 6 2007, 04:02 AM
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#43
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
That's the point. If the target can get inside a Ward (something that is far from guaranteed), he should be protected. |
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Aug 6 2007, 04:02 AM
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#44
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
So I guess you propose that every time someone uses ritual sorry with an indirect combat spell -- say, Lightning Bolt -- they travel around the world, blasting through everything they come across and slowly (if not quickly) being torn asunder before they get anywhere near their target. Since, you know, if it has to pass through ONE barrier it has to pass through ALL barriers. Background counts, mana barriers, magical lodges, etc. All with ZERO intelligence for choosing its own path, and applying equally to ALL spells. Yep. That's totally the way ritual magic works. You nailed it. |
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Aug 6 2007, 04:25 AM
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#45
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
no, i think that the spell does its best to get from team to target, but if it cant (as in the target is INSIDE the ward, then it's got no choice.
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Aug 6 2007, 04:27 AM
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#46
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
My understanding was that the spell simply comes in to being at ground zero. No zipping around the world blasting through stuff , because the spell is purely astral until it hits.
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Aug 6 2007, 04:28 AM
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#47
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Really? well, i think the spell does its best to get from team to target, but if it cant (as the target is INSIDE a plastisteel building, then it's got no choice. :rolleyes: The arguments are not different, or punctuated correctly. -Frank |
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Aug 6 2007, 04:30 AM
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#48
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
esxcept, im very sure that building likely has a window, or a gap, that wouldnt block our spell... i dont think many ward creators would do the same.
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Aug 6 2007, 04:32 AM
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#49
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Let's consider this in terms of the Mr. Magoo challenge thread that spawned this conversation. Are you seriously telling me that the hermetic sealing of the physical vault is enough to stop ritual spellcasting? What, pray tell, do you think is the purpose of ritual spellcasting? -Frank |
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Aug 6 2007, 04:35 AM
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#50
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Thereby still having to pass through and be affected by a Ward. |
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